Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

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Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby SNJ Ash » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:32 pm

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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Kentstripe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:51 pm

I like how the nonsense about the more passes you have the more chance of giving it away got debunked there by Scott.

Possesion football is far more effective which is why the vast majority of pro coaches in this country and around the world now take that approach and literally every academy side play that way.

If you have the ball, the opposition don't. The less they have of the ball, the less they can attack you. The more you have of the ball, the more tiring it is for the opposition, and gaps eventually start to appear. Hence the reason why the better possession sides score a number of late goals. Yes it can sometimes be tedious to watch, but a measured, precise build up is far more likely to eventually lead to clear cut chances then simply playing the percentages.

Nothing to do with aesthetics, it's simply more effective over a long period.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby michael » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:35 pm

nice to get an obliques reference in dispatches as you mention in your first line KS.

-not a game i know much about-but don;t they put the biggest prize in snooker if you 'clear the table'-i'e the longer it goes on-the harder it is to maintain it.
keepie uppies-the first ten are easy-then it gets harder and harder !
sequences come to an end.

so not sure in practice that i am wrong-but who cares as long as FGR win.

i do applaud the management team for sticking with plan A
-I may disagree that plan A (at this level) is the most effective-but ii do concur that if its not working-you stick with plan A as opposed to all this plan B,plan C nonsense.
just do Plan A better..

I take on board the point that its not much point getting balls into the box-if the oppo are good at clearing them -which MR L refers to.
agree entirely-but whilst it may not have been the case in previous games where they have watched crewe-what i witnessed on saturday-was a crewe team who could clear the ball-but they rarely cleared it to their own player.and unusually FGR were getting most of the (cliche) second ball-and getting an opportunity to 'go again'on goal.
thats why i wanted to see more direct play.

(arguably that marginalises my first point about sticking with plan A-where here i am suggesting that they should adapt to take advantage of what i thought was a distinct weakness in their defence (perhaps it was the conditions) but they cleared poorly..
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Theoperator » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:44 pm

Its not just about possession though, weve seen PL teams win with 20% possessions (Burnley I think V Liverpool and a Leicester match too.

Its more about runs and the like rather than endless tiki taka. A team that just passes sideways is actually the most boring of teams to watch, incisive foreward passing is a joy, Hoofball is preferable to sideways tika taka. How often do you see the passing side loosing possession then goals being scored on the counter? I struggle a little in seeing the difference between incisive long 30-40 yard passing and hoofball where the quality of players are very good :oops:

Academies worry me with the emphasis solely on technicals, the absence of good CBs and possibly goalies are maybe related to the academy systems. A good pair of CBs are as if not more important than many other places on the field, which is where Klopp and last seasons Guardiola messed up with. The Arsenal invincibles relied on a lucky combination of very fast attackers, excellent passers of the ball, but equally position aware tight CBs/ defence. I appreciate that the games moved on since then but the basis of the invincibles is there with some of the top PL teams today.

The slightly lower player quality does mean that the top teams style isnt necessarily the best lower down the league as well?
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Kentstripe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:52 pm

Theoperator wrote:The slightly lower player quality does mean that the top teams style isnt necessarily the best lower down the league as well?


Yes, but the opposition will be of lower quality too.

And we're talking about the football league here, where literally every player is a highly trained professional, many having come through top clubs academy systems, where technique takes priority. Being able to keep the ball underpressure and move it quickly in tight spaces shouldn't be beyon d them imo.

Like everything successful, this style takes time and patience to get right, but once you do it is by far the best way to play the game, which is why virtually all top level coaches have adopted that approach.

It's a results business, and there is no way that coaches would choose to play that way if it was just a case of style over substance.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby SkunkMan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:36 pm

I like to watch constructive, incisive, attacking football - I abhor watching the ball humped 70-80 yards in the air all the time.

BUT, I do not subscribe to this concept that endlessly trying to 'out pass' the opposition is always the best way to win games either; to do this, you pretty much have to be TECHNICALLY BETTER than the opposition, just for starters - even before we consider fitness, decision making and a host of other considerations - and how you can ever be certain of this?

The beauty of football is that there are so many different ways to set up a team and win matches - even if some approaches look less 'beautiful' in action than others; I would much rather watch us try to play a passing game, for example, rather than the more direct and physical approach of, for example, Lincoln or Morecambe at TNL this season. BUT, Lincoln have found a very successful formula. It is a bit different to ours, sure, but it works. And I am not saying it is without skill, either. Some teams play a very high tempo pressing game, forcing the opposition into mistakes high up the field. Others 'park the bus' much deeper and rely on a well organised defence, with 10 (even 11) players behind the ball and hitting the opposition on the break.

There is no 'right' way. Good managers should be able to organise the players they have at their disposal to play in a style and formation that gets the best out of those players and therefore gives the team the best chance of winning. There is no point playing slide rule passes for a striker like Matt Rhead to run onto, anymore than there would be crossing balls into the box and expecting a player like Les Afful to head the ball home. You play to the strengths of the players you have to try to WIN. And that, in the final analysis, is what matters most. WINNING.
"Winning doesn't really matter, as long as you win." Vinny Jones
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Kentstripe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:00 pm

SkunkMan wrote:And that, in the final analysis, is what matters most. WINNING.


Exactly, it's a results business. At the top level especially given the money involved.

That's why the fact that the vast majority of modern coaches have gone down the possession/tiki-taka route says a lot. Nothing to do with being pretty, it is clearly thought to be the superior/most effective approach, and the one that gives a team the best chance of winning.

Fewer and fewer sides are playing route one football, including at this level, and I can see that trend continuing in the future.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby cookiemonster » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:44 pm

The shift to possession football has also been encouraged over the years by two other factors (i) rule changes and changes in interpretation. The benefit of the doubt is now given to the player with the ball more often than not. And (ii) better pitches. Even in League 2 most playing surfaces now look like carpets. So if you kick the ball on the floor to a teammate, it seldom deviates.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Tommo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:57 pm

Of course you guys are right - it’s a results business. No-one likes to lose. But I also want to be entertained and, while the result probably is the biggest factor in determining the level of my entertainment, the manner of the result is also important - to me anyway. That is why I prefer MC to AP.

I think it is harder to win with the passing game at this level. It’s just easier to close down and destroy than it is to imagine and create. But we are good at passing football when we are at our best and I think we have learnt to be a bit more direct against the most pragmatic and pressing opposition.

Referencing a previous thread and Scott’s final comments, I also think that by keeping the ball we are more likely to finish the game less tired than the opposition and that that can provide opportunities late on.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Norton Boy » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:47 pm

michael wrote:nice to get an obliques reference in dispatches as you mention in your first line KS.

-not a game i know much about-but don;t they put the biggest prize in snooker if you 'clear the table'-i'e the longer it goes on-the harder it is to maintain it.
keepie uppies-the first ten are easy-then it gets harder and harder !
sequences come to an end.

so not sure in practice that i am wrong-but who cares as long as FGR win..


I am not sure that they are very good analogies myself, Michael, as there is no opposition trying to stop you scoring a 147 in snooker etc. Playing keepy-uppy is easier if you keep control of the ball close to your body rather than booting it 50 yards in the air.
A better analogy for me is tennis, there are baseline players and there are players who like to get close to the net, baseline players like to wear down the opposition by making them run side to side chasing accurate shots and stopping them getting forward to pull off the winning shot until you force them into an error whilst the net players like to get forward quickly and create a chance .FGR fit into the baseline scenario where they are patient and build up until the opposition is worn down until they make a mistake, the downside, of course, is if we are not accurate enough with it and allow the opposition the chance to get to the net then it can cost you.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby GETCARTER » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:53 pm

Do you play to your strengths or do you all play to a system ?. That is the question i have raised before on here. Probably why Keiffer Moore did not flourish to his full potential whilst with us.It was why we got rid of Jon Parkin as we changed the system.All new recruited players have to fit the mould.Player recruitment is based on this fact, and we now tend to see less flair players, and more team performers. The actual fact is though, the game and general spectators are crying out for the flair players,and are quick to demand this in their criticism.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby camel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:02 pm

I like Scott and appreciate him taking the time for this interview. It's hard to disagree with him and I do think some fans are far too impatient.

However we need to create more chances and shots on goal. There are times we are on top in games but still don't really hurt the opposition. Yes we have had an upturn but there is still much more improvement needed.

Up until before the Cheltenham game (new stats not available yet and in any case yesterday won't have helped) we had the second lowest shots total in the league and the lowest shots on target total. We are very lucky to have Doidge who seems to be able to turn water in to wine at times with his goal run. We need to make more of our possession and get more men to take a chance and get in the box or have a shot.

I do like our style though and when it works it's a sight to behold. I also think we are generally moving in the right direction.
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Re: Scott Lindsey on Cheltenham and Tika -taka football

Postby Timb » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:59 pm

The style of football and the quality of football we are playing is the best (alongside Jim Harvey's brand of play to strengths), and the by far the best, respectively, that we have ever achieved.

But the standard of opposition is also the best we have ever played against.

We've reached the level where "mistakes cost goals". So no mistakes. We've done very well on that front since the 10th game, away at Cambridge, and the points have flowed. Keep it that way.

I'm thoroughly enjoying watching the football we play. IO is a key player and takes pressure off DT. I hope it's just a knock. If not then time to give an understudy a run out next Saturday and give IO time to recover.

Even though I want to see FGR do a Chesterfield, or even better, a Calais in the FA Cup. Never say never.
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