Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:22 pm

And he’s a supporter of racism, homophobia and sexual violence. Don’t forget those.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Fartvs Antiqvvs » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:31 pm

You may need a good Attorney there T/H. ;)
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:37 pm

I think the last place he’d want to go is to a court of law.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:44 pm

There’s a large degree of common ground between the Brexit campaigners and the Trump camp Molly. The main subset of this particular Venn diagram is that neither have any kind of thought towards future generations such as yours. Their motives are fairly selfish and revolve around money, power, and isolationism.

Your generation have been given a heavy burden and will have a lot of wrongs to right. Whilst I trust you have the will to do it, I do fear that the damage may be irreparable.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Fartvs Antiqvvs » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:58 pm

Oh come along now. Brexit divide is like a lot of punters on here when FGR lose. ... "Brexit is all Mark Cooper's fault"? :lol:
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Re: Brexit

Postby C F Wilder » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:09 pm

I thought voting leave would make foriegn travel more difficult there by reducing pollution and helping to save the planet. Mrs Mays many trips to beg the Mafia to let us leave without paying the vig or getting whacked has probably sped up its demise. Sorry folks.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:02 am

TreeHugger wrote:There’s a large degree of common ground between the Brexit campaigners and the Trump camp Molly. The main subset of this particular Venn diagram is that neither have any kind of thought towards future generations such as yours. Their motives are fairly selfish and revolve around money, power, and isolationism.

Your generation have been given a heavy burden and will have a lot of wrongs to right. Whilst I trust you have the will to do it, I do fear that the damage may be irreparable.


TreeHugger,

You do write a load of old 'toffee'
You have no real argument for Remain unlike the Brexiteers who have given a full, detailed and compelling case for OUT but you Mr TreeHugger merely resort to ignore what they write and demonise those of a different opinion.
Remember Trump was elected as President of the USA unlike those leading the EU.
Trump can be voted out of office unlike those leader in the EU.
Perhaps Brexiteers motives are "fairly selfish and revolve around money, power, and isolationism" but they have the foresight to see that the EU is doomed and that our children's generation will be eternally grateful to them for getting Britain out.

BTW I am offended by your constant remarks that Brexiteers are a racist which has been shown as completely untrue. You seem to have a hang-up about racialism.
But you excelled yourself with your analogy to paedophilia and Jimmy Saville and Brexit,
That is utterly disgraceful and weakens your case. Sensible undeciders will want to distance themselves from those remarks.

However I'm still a bit undecided whether you are genuine or just a wind up merchant having a bit of fun on forum.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Pitchfork » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:11 am

The 'Leave' and 'Remain' ideologies do appear unbending, hence parliament has struggled to come to any agreement, little middle ground on this forum either.

I have strong views but I do concede merit in opinions other than my own. Theresa May finds this difficult as do most of the hard line Brexiteers in the Commons. There are Remainers who will do anything to stay tied to the EU.

Deadlock and this impasse is mutually harmful to business and the country.

The general public do seem to be more flexible. I know 'leavers' who regret their vote and would vote to stay if given another opportunity.I know remainers who just want a deal and to get the whole exit strategy done and dusted.

What a mess! Thank goodness we can talk about the Cowley Bros, the potential of the play offs and the simple, beautiful game of football.
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Re: Brexit

Postby voodoobluesman » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:41 pm

Unfortunately we always have been and always will be subject to un-elected laws, whether they are from The House of Lords, Royal Family, or even legal precedent. Even more un-elected people have control over our lives. That we are stuck with.

The EU are made up of elected representatives. they vote for their leaders in the same way that our political parties vote for their leaders. The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999, with the majority of those laws being aimed at targeting tax avoidance.

The EU has made so many mistakes, including the Euro, nation's self-interests and multi level bureaucracy. It's by no means the ideal scenario that it has been painted.

On the other hand there are some extremely powerful people who benefit massively in terms of money and power with the UK outside the EU. These vary from Media Barons, Wealthy Businessmen, Politicians, Far Right Politicians from US, Russia and other countries. There are many varied interests that have manipulated public opinion to obtain their own ends. The fall-out of both the Credit Crunch and Middle Eastern wars have made us all more insecure and this can often lead to more nationalistic feelings. This can be coupled with a natural nostalgia for a non-existent Utopian past. This has been done plenty of times with the media. The popularity of Heartbeat, Call the Midwife and Braveheart can all instill a yearning for a fictional world that never existed.

We know that the leave campaigns were both manipulated and acted illegally. How much this affected the vote is not known. The remain campaign was well funded and operated a "project fear" campaign that actually worked against them in the end. " The public are sick and tired of experts" said Gove, and that was all that was needed.

"Take Back Control" was our own version of "We want our freedom (blue face/bad Scottish accent)"

Whether leaving the EU will be a good thing in the future for the UK, we just don't know. All of the experts are predicting that leaving will not be as good for the economy as staying. Even the preferred economist of Jacob Really-Smug, Patrick Minford has said that the decline of the car industry will be an inevitable casualty in the same way the the coal and steel industry decimation was inevitable. As Gove says though, "The Public are sick and tired of experts".

From my point of view, I believe that the future is very uncertain. With the rise of the Chinese, US and Indian economies, I would rather be part of a big trade block like the EU. Personally I prefer an EU state to being a subject of the Royal Family (un-elected, although perhaps for a different debate).

That might make me biased, as we all seem to be now. The world is now more and more given to the extreme point of view, which isn't a good thing, but there is always hope.

I fear becoming an isolated country being at the mercy of the powerful companies, people and countries, but as nervous as I am, we also have an opportunity to create a new start for the UK. One with high ethical standards, well cared-for underclass, environmentally sound principles and technological/engineering skills.

Let's hope we take that road and give ourselves something to shout about.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:41 pm

Excellent summary. Particularly this bit:

"power with the UK outside the EU. These vary from Media Barons, Wealthy Businessmen, Politicians, Far Right Politicians from US, Russia and other countries. There are many varied interests that have manipulated public opinion to obtain their own ends. The fall-out of both the Credit Crunch and Middle Eastern wars have made us all more insecure and this can often lead to more nationalistic feelings. This can be coupled with a natural nostalgia for a non-existent Utopian past. This has been done plenty of times with the media. The popularity of Heartbeat, Call the Midwife and Braveheart can all instill a yearning for a fictional world that never existed. "

Look at who has funded and pushed for Brexit. The propaganda has been lapped up , as we see. The damage is done.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Pitchfork » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:42 pm

voodoobluesman wrote:I fear becoming an isolated country being at the mercy of the powerful companies, people and countries, but as nervous as I am, we also have an opportunity to create a new start for the UK. One with high ethical standards, well cared-for underclass, environmentally sound principles and technological/engineering skills.

Let's hope we take that road and give ourselves something to shout about.


Thank you for taking the trouble to post at length voodoobluesman, I'm sure your views will resonate with many.

IF we do leave, there is an opportunity to move forward in the way you describe. We undeniably have talent in all walks of life in our country. However we do need national political leadership and that does appear to be very thin on the ground.

I have seen much to admire in my travels Iceland, Switzerland and Finland. Yet we have also seen a huge number of pluses from our membership of the EU, undoubtedly we are going to be far worse off in the short term. Looking to the medium and long term, the world our children will live in - I have hardly met anyone under the age of 30 who would prefer to live outside the EU in the future. They really do feel let down by our generation.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:55 pm

voodoobluesman wrote:Personally I prefer an EU state to being a subject of the Royal Family (un-elected, although perhaps for a different debate).


What was that Kenny Everett line? "When England was an empire we had an emperor, when we were a kingdom, we had a king, and now we are a country, we've got Margaret Thatcher."

I suppose you could replace MT with just about anyone/anything ;) including the EU :?:

Pitchfork wrote: Looking to the medium and long term, the world our children will live in - I have hardly met anyone under the age of 30 who would prefer to live outside the EU in the future. They really do feel let down by our generation.


That is really the irony of it all, really. Those that voted out won't be around long - perhaps not even long enough to reap any benefit - whilst those that wanted in will have to live with the older generations decision.

There was a bit of a kerfuffle when wife discovered her daughter & husband had voted out. Wife had voted remain on the basis of avoiding uncertainty. Me too, though I'm long past the desire to listen to experts.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Fartvs Antiqvvs » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:18 pm

paulK wrote: Those that voted out won't be around long - perhaps not even long enough to reap any benefit - whilst those that wanted in will have to live with the older generations decision.


Heavy inference on age discrimination there paulk. If I were ultra sensitive like some members here, I would report you to the authorities of the Forum. :lol:
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:02 pm

Great post voodoo.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:05 pm

Best brext debate i have read on any forum, or from our elected politicians.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:01 pm

voodoobluesman wrote:
I fear becoming an isolated country being at the mercy of the powerful companies, people and countries, but as nervous as I am, we also have an opportunity to create a new start for the UK. One with high ethical standards, well cared-for underclass, environmentally sound principles and technological/engineering skills.

Let's hope we take that road and give ourselves something to shout about.

To go back to the Titanic analogy perhaps it is worthwhile to think of UK post Brexit as the Cutty Sark.
Small but nippy and able to navigate where juggernauts [such as the EU] are unable to sail.
The future will be fine outside EU.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Greeners » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:16 pm

Hi
Pitchfork wrote:Looking to the medium and long term, the world our children will live in - I have hardly met anyone under the age of 30 who would prefer to live outside the EU in the future. They really do feel let down by our generation.


I have been anti Common Market, anti EC and anti Eu consistently since it was first proposed that we join back in the 50s-60s.
If those under 30's really want to live in the EU then I suggest they do just that, there are Boats and Trains and Planes which will take them there.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:42 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
voodoobluesman wrote:
I fear becoming an isolated country being at the mercy of the powerful companies, people and countries, but as nervous as I am, we also have an opportunity to create a new start for the UK. One with high ethical standards, well cared-for underclass, environmentally sound principles and technological/engineering skills.

Let's hope we take that road and give ourselves something to shout about.

To go back to the Titanic analogy perhaps it is worthwhile to think of UK post Brexit as the Cutty Sark.
Small but nippy and able to navigate where juggernauts [such as the EU] are unable to sail.
The future will be fine outside EU.


Except we aren’t in the 1950s anymore, when a letter from HM Govt meant something and you could strike fear into foreigners with a cup of tea and a slice of cake. Today there is the internet, instant communication, computers and so on.

It’s a different world out there and nippy manoeuvres with a gin and tonic don’t cut it any more.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:28 am

Pitchfork wrote: Looking to the medium and long term, the world our children will live in - I have hardly met anyone under the age of 30 who would prefer to live outside the EU in the future. They really do feel let down by our generation.


My generation was once young and idealistic and many including me voted to remain in Common Market.
But with life experience and greater knowledge our generation realised that was an error.
It will be the same for this young generation who once they have joined the working [real] world would vote OUT if there was another Referendum.

And be advised that polls have indicted that if there was another Referendum the result would be the same.
A good visual example was on last week's Question Time when the audience was asked how many have changed their minds and virtually nobody said they had.

BTW the list of firms you infer that had been affected by Brexit included Honda, who are on record in saying Brexit was not reason for leaving UK.
Just that one false entry renders list u/s.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Silver Surfer » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:44 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
My generation was once young and idealistic and many including me voted to remain in Common Market.
But with life experience and greater knowledge our generation realised that was an error.
It will be the same for this young generation who once they have joined the working [real] world would vote OUT if there was another Referendum.

And be advised that polls have indicted that if there was another Referendum the result would be the same.
A good visual example was on last week's Question Time when the audience was asked how many have changed their minds and virtually nobody said they had.


So why are the Brexiteers so afraid of a second referendum?
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