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Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:07 am
by JackAdam
dursleydog wrote:Frankly it doesn’t matter if we voted remain or leave, the single biggest threat to our democracy and reputation of our country is that a referendum that was proven to be fraudulent is being allowed to stand. I cannot overemphasise just how dangerous an example that is to set, and would have damaging consequences beyond the (already fairly catastrophic) effects of Brexit.

For reference, the electoral commission has the power to declare referenda null and void if they find that a significant level of fraud has taken place (ie. May have changed the end result). As the 52-48 split is a fairly marginal one, and the extent of the fraud has been proven to be widespread, there’s clearly an issue there.
The problem for the electoral commission is that these powers are only available to them when the referendum in question has a legally binding result. In legal terms, the Brexit referendum is just an advisory poll, the politicians have no legal responsibility to act upon it. This was something decided by the seemingly bottomless pit of wisdom that is David Cameron, in that we are still digging and are yet to find any.

As the result of the referendum is not legally binding (even though the politicians are treating it as though it is) the electoral commission only have the power to fine the offending party and make recommendations to the government, both of which they have done. They have also stated that had the referendum been a legally binding one, they certainly would have declared it null and void and implemented a re-run.

It’s a thouroughly sad state of affairs for our country. And speaking as a younger person who’s entire working life will be shaped by this referendum, the absolute minimum I’d want to see from this decision is that it was made legally, and that this country was absolutely sure.


This is so true.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:35 pm
by The Old TomCat
dursleydog wrote:Here’s a pretty good run down of Leave campaign electoral fraud:
A.) Vote Leave (the official campaign) breaking their spending limit of £7m by over £0.5m by running funds through a youth Leave groupcalled BeLeave (who also smashed their spending limit to pieces btw). They were both fined by the electoral commission but that was all the electoral commission could legally do. They were also refferred to the Met Police, but sadly the police decided to not investigate further as it was deemed “too politically sensitive”.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... ctoral-law

B.) Leave.EU, a subsidiary Leave campaign (but still very significant, this was the Farage and UKIP backed one) was also found to have breached electoral spending limits.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... estigation

C.) The largest doner (of some £8m) to Leave.EU is currently under criminal investigation for the sourcing of funds. He has strong links to both the Russian state and the ex-Trump advisor Steve Bannon.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&sourc ... 8766766008

D.) And the final big one, Cambridge Analytica. The actual details are pretty complex and explained better in the article than I ever could so I’ll just leave it to them. Cambridge Analytica was under investigation for just how widely used it was by the Leave campaign, but the company shut down before the investigation was completed. It was definitely used on a wide scale by the Trump campaign, and definitely recommended to Leave.EU by Steve Bannon, and Leave.EU were in communication with the firm. The whole thing got blown open by a Leave campaigning whistleblower.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/m ... s-election

Hope all this stuff helps with people forming their own opinions on whether this vitally important referendum was run fairly or not.


The British public was lie to in the 1972 Referendum.
If they had been told the truth the UK would never have joined the Common Market/EU.
Two wrongs do not make a right but the decision stood then as should the last Referendum.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opin ... 19265.html
or
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ish-public

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:47 pm
by Too occasional fan
Gotta love The Express's biog bit about Ted Heath. Wonderfully relevant to the article. What a grim newspaper that is.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:00 pm
by dursleydog
The wilful avoidance is getting very irritating now, so for the last time.
LYING AND FRAUD ARE NOT THE SAME THING

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:20 pm
by king giraffe III
dursleydog wrote:The wilful avoidance is getting very irritating now, so for the last time.
LYING AND FRAUD ARE NOT THE SAME THING


Do you really expect anything else? Said individual always avoids relevant (or sometimes any) answers when they're in a corner.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:25 pm
by king giraffe III
Too occasional fan wrote:Gotta love The Express's biog bit about Ted Heath. Wonderfully relevant to the article. What a grim newspaper that is.


As much as I can't stand the Express I do read its website every day. It's so funny.

If Putin isn't starting WWIII, snow is burying us all or Farage is silencing a member of the public on a radio phone in, it's all Labour MPs betraying Brexit and talk of Brexit sabotage by Johnny Foreigner.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:33 pm
by Timb
In a similar vein I google brexit news mist days and most of the time you can see the same snippet of information spun so many different ways you'd need a whole cricket team to catch them all. And then there's the Express playing a different game altogether. PENALTY to England.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm
by Tomiswalking
The Old TomCat wrote:
dursleydog wrote:Here’s a pretty good run down of Leave campaign electoral fraud:
A.) Vote Leave (the official campaign) breaking their spending limit of £7m by over £0.5m by running funds through a youth Leave groupcalled BeLeave (who also smashed their spending limit to pieces btw). They were both fined by the electoral commission but that was all the electoral commission could legally do. They were also refferred to the Met Police, but sadly the police decided to not investigate further as it was deemed “too politically sensitive”.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... ctoral-law

B.) Leave.EU, a subsidiary Leave campaign (but still very significant, this was the Farage and UKIP backed one) was also found to have breached electoral spending limits.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... estigation

C.) The largest doner (of some £8m) to Leave.EU is currently under criminal investigation for the sourcing of funds. He has strong links to both the Russian state and the ex-Trump advisor Steve Bannon.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&sourc ... 8766766008

D.) And the final big one, Cambridge Analytica. The actual details are pretty complex and explained better in the article than I ever could so I’ll just leave it to them. Cambridge Analytica was under investigation for just how widely used it was by the Leave campaign, but the company shut down before the investigation was completed. It was definitely used on a wide scale by the Trump campaign, and definitely recommended to Leave.EU by Steve Bannon, and Leave.EU were in communication with the firm. The whole thing got blown open by a Leave campaigning whistleblower.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/m ... s-election

Hope all this stuff helps with people forming their own opinions on whether this vitally important referendum was run fairly or not.


The British public was lie to in the 1972 Referendum.
If they had been told the truth the UK would never have joined the Common Market/EU.
Two wrongs do not make a right but the decision stood then as should the last Referendum.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opin ... 19265.html
or
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ish-public


So two wrongs dont make a right, but this should stand because the last one did, they got it wrong last time and lied and you think we should not have joined, they lied this time but you agree with the facts this time and not the lies.

Do you realise how confusing that is?

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:26 pm
by Silver Surfer
Was the huge "divorce bill" mentioned during the referendum campaign?

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:19 pm
by Silver Surfer
And what has become of the 3 stooges, Gove, Farage and Johnson, who drove the "leave" campaign forward? Are they boldly driving the Brexit through using their clear vision of where we are going? They seen to have been reduced to sniping in the background and leaving Teresa May to try and make some sense of things.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:34 pm
by dursleydog
Silver Surfer wrote:And what has become of the 3 stooges, Gove, Farage and Johnson, who drove the "leave" campaign forward? Are they boldly driving the Brexit through using their clear vision of where we are going? They seen to have been reduced to sniping in the background and leaving Teresa May to try and make some sense of things.


I’ve heard it said that Brexit would’ve been much smoother if we had a brexiteer in charge.
Of course they had the chance to take charge, May ended up getting it unopposed. Johnson and Gove knifed each other in the back in what looked like a mad rush to scramble away from number 10 as fast as possible.
They knew they wouldn’t be able to deliver what they promised, they chose to carry on the fantasy from the back benches rather than face up to reality in a leadership role

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:28 am
by Molly68008
I am sure England will continue to a shinning of how a country should whether or not it remains in the European Union. People all over the world can learn from the United Kingdom. And some (like me) just wish they were lucky enough to born in the U.K.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:57 am
by Too occasional fan
Molly68008 wrote:I am sure England will continue to a shinning of how a country should whether or not it remains in the European Union. People all over the world can learn from the United Kingdom. And some (like me) just wish they were lucky enough to born in the U.K.

A problem is that England is not the UK. England does have more people though, and has effectively messed up the future of the other parts of the U.K. most of the ones that voted to leave the EU don’t seem to care about this fact.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:13 pm
by The Old TomCat
Too occasional fan wrote:A problem is that England is not the UK. England does have more people though, and has effectively messed up the future of the other parts of the U.K. most of the ones that voted to leave the EU don’t seem to care about this fact.


The United Kingdom is one nation of 66.85 million people.

England has population of 55.3 million [84.2% of UK population]

The other three regions of UK have a combined population of less than a quarter of that number/percentage:

Scotland ... 5.4 million [8.2% of population]
Wales ........ 3.15 million [4.7% of population
N Ireland .. 1.9 million [2.8% of population


Using your argument it is like suggesting that the tail should be wagging the dog.

# # # # # # # # # # # # #

BTW: Referendum results:
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%) Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)

Two regions of UK [England & Wales] voted to Leave
England
Leave: 15,188,406 [53.38%], Remain: 13,266,996 [46.62%]
Wales:
Leave: 854,572 [52.53%], Remain: 772,347 [47.47%]

Two regions of UK [Scotland & Northern Ireland] voted to Remain
Scotland
Remain: 1,661,191 [62.00%], Leave: 1,018,322 [38.00%]
Northern Ireland
Remain: 440,707 [55.78%], Leave: 349,442 [44.22%]

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:46 pm
by cookiemonster
The time has long gone when the different nations of the UK can be coerced into staying part of the UK. If I was part of the 62% remain majority in Scotland I would want out, and I predict Scotland will be an independent country in my lifetime if Brexit happens and good luck to them. I don't think English Brexiteers would care about that and they certainly couldn't resist it given all the taking back control claptrap they used during the referendum and since.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:07 pm
by Lady Magpie
Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:43 pm
by Too occasional fan
The Old TomCat wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:A problem is that England is not the UK. England does have more people though, and has effectively messed up the future of the other parts of the U.K. most of the ones that voted to leave the EU don’t seem to care about this fact.


The United Kingdom is one nation of 66.85 million people.

England has population of 55.3 million [84.2% of UK population]

The other three regions of UK have a combined population of less than a quarter of that number/percentage:

Scotland ... 5.4 million [8.2% of population]
Wales ........ 3.15 million [4.7% of population
N Ireland .. 1.9 million [2.8% of population


Using your argument it is like suggesting that the tail should be wagging the dog.

# # # # # # # # # # # # #

BTW: Referendum results:
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%) Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)

Two regions of UK [England & Wales] voted to Leave
England
Leave: 15,188,406 [53.38%], Remain: 13,266,996 [46.62%]
Wales:
Leave: 854,572 [52.53%], Remain: 772,347 [47.47%]

Two regions of UK [Scotland & Northern Ireland] voted to Remain
Scotland
Remain: 1,661,191 [62.00%], Leave: 1,018,322 [38.00%]
Northern Ireland
Remain: 440,707 [55.78%], Leave: 349,442 [44.22%]


"Using your argument it is like suggesting that the tail should be wagging the dog. "

You mean like the UK telling the EU things...?

Scotland is in fact a country. So is Wales.

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:33 pm
by voodoobluesman
Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


Yeah, 'cause walls are good things aren't they?

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:46 pm
by Fartvs Antiqvvs
Walls' Magnums aren't bad though. :D

Re: Brexit

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:49 pm
by gooseman
"Wales is a country". Not sure on that. I thought it was a principality. That is why you have a devolved Scottish Parliament and a devolved Welsh Assembly.