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Re: Brexit

Postby cookiemonster » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:56 pm

Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


So in other words take the same attitude to a nation leaving the UK as the Brexiteers imagine and allege the EU is now taking to the UK, and hammering the EU for. Absolutely bizarre.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:59 pm

Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


We get the quality of politicians we deserve. So this post explains an awful lot
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:06 pm

And for reference the UK is a union not a country. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all their own nations, with varying degrees of self-governance.

Interesting history lesson for anyone wondering why the northern Irish border is our problem to deal with, Northern Ireland was only created as the Protestant England moved Protestants to the north of Eire to artificially create a Protestant dominated region within a catholic dominated country. That act directly led to the formation of Northern Ireland and the troubles, something that will undoubtedly return with the implementation of any form of border, either between Eire and NI or down the Irish Sea. This of course is a non-issue with (the proven to be beneficial to our economy and society beyond all reasonable doubt) freedom of movement.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:51 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:A problem is that England is not the UK. England does have more people though, and has effectively messed up the future of the other parts of the U.K. most of the ones that voted to leave the EU don’t seem to care about this fact.


The United Kingdom is one nation of 66.85 million people.

England has population of 55.3 million [84.2% of UK population]

The other three regions of UK have a combined population of less than a quarter of that number/percentage:

Scotland ... 5.4 million [8.2% of population]
Wales ........ 3.15 million [4.7% of population
N Ireland .. 1.9 million [2.8% of population


Using your argument it is like suggesting that the tail should be wagging the dog.

# # # # # # # # # # # # #

BTW: Referendum results:
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%) Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)

Two regions of UK [England & Wales] voted to Leave
England
Leave: 15,188,406 [53.38%], Remain: 13,266,996 [46.62%]
Wales:
Leave: 854,572 [52.53%], Remain: 772,347 [47.47%]

Two regions of UK [Scotland & Northern Ireland] voted to Remain
Scotland
Remain: 1,661,191 [62.00%], Leave: 1,018,322 [38.00%]
Northern Ireland
Remain: 440,707 [55.78%], Leave: 349,442 [44.22%]


You missed one important statistic there:

51,400,000 people in the UK didn’t vote to leave.

That’s approximately 77% of the population. And yet the 23% think we ought to do what they think is best and assimilate with their short-termist, xenophobic, greedy, baseless agenda. It’s the stuff of despots.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:14 pm

TreeHugger wrote:

You missed one important statistic there:

51,400,000 people in the UK didn’t vote to leave.

That’s approximately 77% of the population. And yet the 23% think we ought to do what they think is best and assimilate with their short-termist, xenophobic, greedy, baseless agenda. It’s the stuff of despots.


Yes, 77% including babies and children :lol: And to put it in to perspective, how many didn't vote to stay :?: Slightly less than didn't vote to leave :roll:

You work it out. I can't be bothered :|
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:23 pm

gooseman wrote:"Wales is a country". Not sure on that. I thought it was a principality. That is why you have a devolved Scottish Parliament and a devolved Welsh Assembly.


Yes, you are right. I had a funny feeling about it when I typed it!
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:28 pm

paulK wrote:
TreeHugger wrote:

You missed one important statistic there:

51,400,000 people in the UK didn’t vote to leave.

That’s approximately 77% of the population. And yet the 23% think we ought to do what they think is best and assimilate with their short-termist, xenophobic, greedy, baseless agenda. It’s the stuff of despots.


Yes, 77% including babies and children :lol: And to put it in to perspective, how many didn't vote to stay :?: Slightly less than didn't vote to leave :roll:

You work it out. I can't be bothered :|


I think the point is more that, whatever the arguments, this is not a good thing that is being done. It is appalling for the country.

A referendum should not have been used. Nigel Farage should not have said what he did - his comment has spurred the Remain camp on and I have no doubt that he would have carried on until he got what he wanted, or died.

This is not over. The country is deeply divided, Parliament has made a mockery of itself, and some people have grabbed a platform immeasurably bigger than they should have.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:44 pm

paulK wrote:
TreeHugger wrote:

You missed one important statistic there:

51,400,000 people in the UK didn’t vote to leave.

That’s approximately 77% of the population. And yet the 23% think we ought to do what they think is best and assimilate with their short-termist, xenophobic, greedy, baseless agenda. It’s the stuff of despots.


Yes, 77% including babies and children :lol: And to put it in to perspective, how many didn't vote to stay :?: Slightly less than didn't vote to leave :roll:

You work it out. I can't be bothered :|


Yep - I include babies and children too , because they will be affected by the decision - probably more so than those who voted leave. That’s kind of the point. A referendum result that close should never result in direct change. If the stats aren’t palatable to you then I similarly can’t be bothered to work them out for you. I’ll leave you to your apathy.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tomiswalking » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:50 pm

Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


Why is this your personal ambition?
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Re: Brexit

Postby king giraffe III » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:23 pm

Tomiswalking wrote:
Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


Why is this your personal ambition?


I suspect she is writing this in an attempt to be edgy. Fail troll.
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Re: Brexit

Postby andymac26 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:54 pm

cookiemonster wrote:The time has long gone when the different nations of the UK can be coerced into staying part of the UK. If I was part of the 62% remain majority in Scotland I would want out, and I predict Scotland will be an independent country in my lifetime if Brexit happens and good luck to them. I don't think English Brexiteers would care about that and they certainly couldn't resist it given all the taking back control claptrap they used during the referendum and since.


+1 saor alba.
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Re: Brexit

Postby andymac26 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:02 pm

dursleydog wrote:
Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


We get the quality of politicians we deserve. So this post explains an awful lot


Doesn't it just though.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Lady Magpie » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:05 pm

king giraffe III wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:
Lady Magpie wrote:Personally I would do a Donald Trump, or in this case rebuild Hadrian's Wall making sure that any goods are not brought up through England from Europe. They can have their own docks, money and passports to come into England as well.


Why is this your personal ambition?


I suspect she is writing this in an attempt to be edgy. Fail troll.


No I'm dead serious. Lived in Scotland for 4 years, It's a beautiful place and wonderful people. It;s Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford MP that's got me so annoyed. All they can talk about in any conversation is Scottish independence, let the have it and take the consequences.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:25 pm

TreeHugger wrote:
paulK wrote:
TreeHugger wrote:

You missed one important statistic there:

51,400,000 people in the UK didn’t vote to leave.

That’s approximately 77% of the population. And yet the 23% think we ought to do what they think is best and assimilate with their short-termist, xenophobic, greedy, baseless agenda. It’s the stuff of despots.


Yes, 77% including babies and children :lol: And to put it in to perspective, how many didn't vote to stay :?: Slightly less than didn't vote to leave :roll:

You work it out. I can't be bothered :|


Yep - I include babies and children too , because they will be affected by the decision - probably more so than those who voted leave. That’s kind of the point. A referendum result that close should never result in direct change. If the stats aren’t palatable to you then I similarly can’t be bothered to work them out for you. I’ll leave you to your apathy.


You missed the point. More people didn't vote to remain than didn't vote to leave It's you that has a problem with the stats :roll: :roll: :roll:

Palatable or not, I have accepted the decision - I just don't accept your portrayal of the stats. There have always been issues on how we decide things. That isn't going to change. At least, in my lifetime.

By the way, in this case "apathy" = a less stressful life. I can live with that ;)
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:11 am

Reasons why people that didn’t vote didn’t are assumed.

It is assumed that those that didn’t vote would have been equally divided between Leave and Remain.

With the glorious Pig Fancier and his team giving out vibes that Remain would win, just maybe more remainers stayed at home than Leavers...

You take a position that because a vote was taken and resulted in a narrow marginal result that that should be extrapolated to 100%. I remember Nigel Farage clearly saying that if there was a narrow margin, it was not over. Surely for a vote of such magnitude a majority of, say, 60% was needed. Whichever, this is not over. Leavers will be hated for decades, by Remainers. The country is horribly split. Those that say “You lost, get over it!” Need to look at their own humanity. It is a gross statement to make in a democracy.

It is ignored that the vote taken was advisory and sensibly should not have been taken as the basis for fundamental constitutional change.

It is ignored that many Leave voters made it clear that this was a protest vote, so it would be fair to ask if their vote should be considered valid for such a monumental constitutional change.

The EU is not perfect. It is an antidote to Trump and China.

5 years time and we willl be interesting because we have The Queen.
When she dies, it’s just us. Against the big, wide, mean, (occasionally) corrupt world.

PaulK, OTC and Lady Magpie, are you ready for the future that you wish for? Are you young enough to be around when it truly bites?
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:19 am

Too occasional fan wrote:Reasons why people that didn’t vote didn’t are assumed.

It is assumed that those that didn’t vote would have been equally divided between Leave and Remain.

With the glorious Pig Fancier and his team giving out vibes that Remain would win, just maybe more remainers stayed at home than Leavers...

You take a position that because a vote was taken and resulted in a narrow marginal result that that should be extrapolated to 100%. I remember Nigel Farage clearly saying that if there was a narrow margin, it was not over. Surely for a vote of such magnitude a majority of, say, 60% was needed. Whichever, this is not over. Leavers will be hated for decades, by Remainers. The country is horribly split. Those that say “You lost, get over it!” Need to look at their own humanity. It is a gross statement to make in a democracy.

It is ignored that the vote taken was advisory and sensibly should not have been taken as the basis for fundamental constitutional change.

It is ignored that many Leave voters made it clear that this was a protest vote, so it would be fair to ask if their vote should be considered valid for such a monumental constitutional change.

The EU is not perfect. It is an antidote to Trump and China.

5 years time and we willl be interesting because we have The Queen.
When she dies, it’s just us. Against the big, wide, mean, (occasionally) corrupt world.

PaulK, OTC and Lady Magpie, are you ready for the future that you wish for? Are you young enough to be around when it truly bites?


Rather a lot of assumptions by you in here TOF.

No way have I assumed any extrapolation - just disagreed with a stupid massaging and presentation of statistics.

You obviously haven't a clue how i voted and/or what I wish for.

Not knowing when, if ever, this future that you assume will bite I can't possibly answer that question.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:30 am

I don’t know how you voted, but I have read your posts.

Anyway, let’s move on.

What is going to happen in the third edition of the Meaningful Vote?
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:42 pm

Plenty of posts from Leavers and Remainers offering firm opinions in support of their stance.
But lets take a step back and see what we all agree upon.

# The Referendum was decided in favour for Leave by over a million more votes.

# The two major political parties went into last General Election promising to honour result of Referendum.

# If/when UK leaves the EU the leavers will have no option but to accept the situation. It will be impossible to go back unless a future government applies to join the EU.
As a new applicant the UK would not have built up a chest full of EU credit that they currently enjoy. They would be starting from scratch and minded of the current Brexit fiasco, it seems almost certain a future government will not go down that route.

# Should Parliament fail to ratify Referendum, the Brexiteers can and would continue to fight for their cause. They would claim, rightly, that the government has failed to deliver on Referendum and election promises.

# It seems unlikely that UK will leave EU under a clean break [or crash out as some say]

# At time of writing it is 50/50 whether Parliament will pass Teresa May’s backstop plan.

# UK could fall out of EU by default if no leave agreement can be found. Or if a country within the EU say ‘Non’ to British proposal.

My opinion:
The vote in House of Commons on Tuesday will be interesting. I think Teresa May’s plan will be voted down for third time but by smaller margin.
I suspect a proposed 4th vote a week later, after further negotiations with EU, will be decisive. By then I suspect Brexiteers will accept they must compromise if they want UK to leave the EU and vote for Prime Minister May’s plan.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:47 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:Plenty of posts from Leavers and Remainers offering firm opinions in support of their stance.
But lets take a step back and see what we all agree upon.

# The Referendum was decided in favour for Leave by over a million more votes.

# The two major political parties went into last General Election promising to honour result of Referendum.

# If/when UK leaves the EU the leavers will have no option but to accept the situation. It will be impossible to go back unless a future government applies to join the EU.
As a new applicant the UK would not have built up a chest full of EU credit that they currently enjoy. They would be starting from scratch and minded of the current Brexit fiasco, it seems almost certain a future government will not go down that route.

# Should Parliament fail to ratify Referendum, the Brexiteers can and would continue to fight for their cause. They would claim, rightly, that the government has failed to deliver on Referendum and election promises.

# It seems unlikely that UK will leave EU under a clean break [or crash out as some say]

# At time of writing it is 50/50 whether Parliament will pass Teresa May’s backstop plan.

# UK could fall out of EU by default if no leave agreement can be found. Or if a country within the EU say ‘Non’ to British proposal.

My opinion:
The vote in House of Commons on Tuesday will be interesting. I think Teresa May’s plan will be voted down for third time but by smaller margin.
I suspect a proposed 4th vote a week later, after further negotiations with EU, will be decisive. By then I suspect Brexiteers will accept they must compromise if they want UK to leave the EU and vote for Prime Minister May’s plan.


The trouble with Mays deal is it still doesn’t answer the Northern Ireland problem, as will any version of leaving that scraps freedom of movement.

Speaking from the remain side, I could happily compromise for a leave deal that was a.) legally achieved and b.) plausible, even if it meant risking some short term economic disruption. Something along the lines of a Norway or Swiss style agreement. Given this was actually what the Leave campaign were suggesting a ‘Leave’ vote would look like, this is hardly unreasonable.

However, as the referendum was not legal, for all the reasons I’ve detailed before, that really changes my perspective on it. Add into that the issues with Mays deal as she’s pushed it further into the realms of fantasy in order to stop the hard brexiteers jump from the Tory ship altogether, and I just do not see how her deal would do anything to benefit the country.

Plus, for her to run the exact same deal through parliament 3 or 4 times to attempt to get the result she wants while claiming a 2nd referendum would be undemocratic is hypocrisy in the extreme. Democracy is inherently run on people being able to change their minds and express that at the ballot box.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:03 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:I don’t know how you voted, but I have read your posts.

In that case, I'm confused as to why you don't know which way I voted ;)
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