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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Sun May 26, 2019 8:50 pm

twoguns wrote:I voted for English Democrats down in Cornwall. None of the mainstream parties represent me in fact I'm done with all mainstream politics. I usually spoil my ballot paper but this party says they're putting England first so I thought I'd give them my vote.


It doesn't sound like you do a lot of political research twoguns. If you had you might have found out the English Democrats are a far right wing racist party born out of the collapse of the BNP. They are officially aligned with a number of far-right nationalist parties across europe, including the greek 'Golden Dawn' party among others. Golden Dawn openly support nazi inspired policies and their logo is strongly reminiscent of the swastika.

I'm pleased you decided to vote, although a spoiled ballot is certainly better than not turning up. However, a quick google of what these parties stand far might be a useful idea in the future.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Sun May 26, 2019 9:19 pm

dursleydog wrote:Brexit as a vote for political change is a very valid viewpoint, but unfortunately I don’t think it’ll change things for the better.
The anger and discontentment at the political classes is justified, but the problem has been misdiagnosed in my opinion, Brexit will only worsen our societal divides and hand power to the worst of our elitist career politicians who preside over this mess. Will Farage, Boris Johnson, or Rees-Mogg really make things better? Improve social equality? Modernise our parliamentary system? Provide realistic solutions to modern issues such as the climate crisis?

Not a chance. These privately educated dinosaurs will only harness the people’s justified anger to drag us backwards and the only beneficiaries will be themselves and people like them.

We need changes like Proportional Representation, reduction in the power of the unelected House of Lords, a shakeup of our stagnant two party system. Brexit will not solve these issues, it has merely hijacked the righteous anger for its own purpose


I don't think an Elected House of Lords would do us any good. People generally elect representatives on short terms, and national swings. At least an appointed HoL could smooth out the ping-pong that our politics has become. It would need a cross-party committee to appoint (not PMs) and be apolitical.
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Re: Brexit

Postby twoguns » Sun May 26, 2019 10:43 pm

I didn't recieve a voting card so only really went to the polling station to understand if I was on the register. I was and surprised to understand how many parties were standing for election.

Mainstream politics is dead and the sooner you come out of your trenches and understand the world is changing the better for all of us.

I'm very comfortable with my vote and look forward to my week in Lindos 5th June.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Sun May 26, 2019 11:18 pm

twoguns wrote:I didn't recieve a voting card so only really went to the polling station to understand if I was on the register. I was and surprised to understand how many parties were standing for election.

Mainstream politics is dead and the sooner you come out of your trenches and understand the world is changing the better for all of us.

I'm very comfortable with my vote and look forward to my week in Lindos 5th June.


If you’re comfortable voting for Nazi sympathisers that’s entirely your choice, this is a free democracy.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Sun May 26, 2019 11:23 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
dursleydog wrote:Brexit as a vote for political change is a very valid viewpoint, but unfortunately I don’t think it’ll change things for the better.
The anger and discontentment at the political classes is justified, but the problem has been misdiagnosed in my opinion, Brexit will only worsen our societal divides and hand power to the worst of our elitist career politicians who preside over this mess. Will Farage, Boris Johnson, or Rees-Mogg really make things better? Improve social equality? Modernise our parliamentary system? Provide realistic solutions to modern issues such as the climate crisis?

Not a chance. These privately educated dinosaurs will only harness the people’s justified anger to drag us backwards and the only beneficiaries will be themselves and people like them.

We need changes like Proportional Representation, reduction in the power of the unelected House of Lords, a shakeup of our stagnant two party system. Brexit will not solve these issues, it has merely hijacked the righteous anger for its own purpose


I don't think an Elected House of Lords would do us any good. People generally elect representatives on short terms, and national swings. At least an appointed HoL could smooth out the ping-pong that our politics has become. It would need a cross-party committee to appoint (not PMs) and be apolitical.


I absolutely agree. I’m not advocating for an elected HoL, more a reduction in its power to being an advisory body. So that it can, exactly as you say, aid cross party collaboration.
I think that the main reason our parties are so terrible at working together is FPTP, it forces politicians to coalesce into 2 huge unwieldy blocks that do not naturally fit together. When crisis comes, they fracture, and the leaders first responsibility is never the country, but to prevent the splitting of their own party.
A switch to PR would allow parties to be themselves in smaller more organic blocks, and encourage compromise and collaboration as the only route to power. It would also be far more representative of our population and help eliminate the feeling of disenfranchisement among the British people.
These need to happen whatever happens with Brexit. No remain argument can be truly made without acknowledging the desperate need for reform.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 12:32 am

So, the results are mostly in now, and the Brexit Party has won. HOWEVER, the picture is more complicated than that.

The brexit party has benefitted hugely from 2 things, the collapse of UKIP, and the embarrassment of the Tories. It’s a one horse race on the right, a reflection of the anger at brexit not being delivered, and the radicalisation of those who believe the only possible Brexit option is to reject any and every deal proposed.

On the other side, remain parties have also done well, but the vote has been split. A number have stuck with Labour, who have had a torrid time although not as catastrophic as the Tories. The Lib Dem’s have overtaken Labour into 2nd place, and the Greens have climbed into 4th. ChangeUK have proven to be useless in an already crowded field and have sunk without trace.

The current indication is that the remain vote is actually higher than the hard brexit vote. Currently (most results are in but not all), the rough approximations are remain parties - 40%, Hard Brexit parties - 35%, Tories/Labour - -25%

Now I’m sure to brexit voters they’ll see Brexit Party in 1st and claim that as a win, just as remain voters will see a victory for the total remain vote share and claim that as a win.

Me? I see division. We blame parliament for failing to come to an agreement but how can we when we cannot come close to agreeing? Parliament in this case represents us too well, stuck in a 3 sided tussle with a majority for nothing and a majority against everything.

The only way out of this is to reduce it to a binary question once more. A 2nd referendum between remain and a brexit option (no deal looks most popular). A legally binding vote, unlike the last one, to give the electoral commission the power to ensure it is legally and fairly run. A legally binding vote that takes the decision out of a struggling parliaments hand and back into our own.

I know brexiteers will say we shouldn’t need a 2nd referendum. And they’re right, we shouldn’t have to need one. But that doesn’t change the fact that we do. It doesn’t change the fact that the single biggest threat to our democracy right now is a knowingly fraudulent result being allowed to stand. If brexit happens, let it be by fair means, with a clear direction, and a legally obtained democratic mandate.
That shouldn’t be too much to ask.

I feel the country I love is being slowly torn away from me right now. The country that founded the nhs, the country that built the welfare state, the country that stood up to fascism and welcomed immigrants from Europe and beyond in that fight for a better society, the country that stood on the world stage and didn’t pander to easy answers but stuck to effective solutions. That country seems to be dying at the hands of those who claim to love it the most, and it’s so very sad.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Silver Surfer » Mon May 27, 2019 9:41 am

Interesting election, but I fear that it doesn't move us forward. As a country we are deeply divided and no one can see a way forward. There is a large minority who think that brexit is the most important issue facing the planet and this will dominate Westminster politics for now.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Mon May 27, 2019 10:02 am

I voted, but think it's a shame a number of EU citizens were denied their vote due to the lateness of the decision to take part, including some in my family.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Mon May 27, 2019 10:15 am

An indecisive result in European Elections.
Both Remain & Leavers claim to have secured most votes.
What is crystal clear is that the two major parties have suffered one of the worst set-backs in their histories. Therefore an early General Election is extremely unlikely.
Turkey’s don’t vote for Christmas.
My personal belief is that the result strengthens the hand of Conservative candidates supporting Leave and a Leaver will assuredly become PM.
I also belief that the country will leave the EU in October. Parliament has already signed Article 50.
Most MPs from Conservative and Labour will look at the political landscape and not want to rock the boat and scupper their own future political career.
Whether the Europeans change their negotiating attitude towards UK and become more flexible remains to be seen. Overnight there have been massive changes/upsets throughout the continent.

The elections have put to bed many misleading statements by Remainers:
# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.
# The country knew what exactly what leaving the EU means and have dismissed any concerns
# Remainers claimed that youngsters should have had the vote and they would have voted Remain. Those youngsters are now of voting age and the Brexit vote has not been reduced.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Mon May 27, 2019 10:26 am

Tomiswalking wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:I wonder what will happen to UKIP.


Washed up has-been's who will consigned to history.
But they were instrumental in getting the Brexit debate into the open.


I expect a debate to be intelligent, generaly this has been ill informed argument at best. The only saving grace for me is that the a lot of people who have voted brexit used it as a vote for change a change to politics. I hope we move forwards to a proportaional system of voting in this country, so that we are ALL better represented.


I'm at a loss with your reply.
I offered an honest opinion which has proven to be correct.
Ukip comprehensibly lost
Nothing ill informed in what I wrote.

And remember the British public voted against AV [defacto Proportional Representation] in 2011.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 10:40 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:I wonder what will happen to UKIP.


Washed up has-been's who will consigned to history.
But they were instrumental in getting the Brexit debate into the open.


I expect a debate to be intelligent, generaly this has been ill informed argument at best. The only saving grace for me is that the a lot of people who have voted brexit used it as a vote for change a change to politics. I hope we move forwards to a proportaional system of voting in this country, so that we are ALL better represented.


I'm at a loss with your reply.
I offered an honest opinion which has proven to be correct.
Ukip comprehensibly lost
Nothing ill informed in what I wrote.

And remember the British public voted against AV [defacto Proportional Representation] in 2011.


UKIP were simply replaced by new UKIP, the only actual gain Farage has made in real terms in 4 seats on 2014. Weirdly for such a tumultuous time in politics, not a lot has actually changed there.
Lib Dem’s and Greens between them gained 19 seats however, that’s impressive.

Claiming AV is a de facto Proportional Representation is just simply untrue OTC, they’re wildly different. AV is certainly a step towards PR, but it’s nowhere near being the same.

You’ve also completely misunderstood Tomiswalking’s point, it was not an attack on you personally, but the quite reasonable claim that the whole debate has been portly informed and lacking nuance or a grounding in reality. On that they are 100% accurate. It is exactly why we shouldn’t have had a blasted referendum on it in the first place.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Mon May 27, 2019 10:45 am

I think Labour MP's would definitely want a GE, as their vote has not collapsed anywhere near as badly as the Tory's, so they would most likely end up as the biggest party.

The next PM will definitely be a hard Brexiteer imo, so a no deal scenario is most likely in October unless Parliament tries to stop it, and even if they do it could still happen. Maybe TM's deal wasn't so bad afterall, would have saved us a lot of hassle. :lol:
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 11:10 am

The Old TomCat wrote:An indecisive result in European Elections.
Both Remain & Leavers claim to have secured most votes.
What is crystal clear is that the two major parties have suffered one of the worst set-backs in their histories. Therefore an early General Election is extremely unlikely.
Turkey’s don’t vote for Christmas.
My personal belief is that the result strengthens the hand of Conservative candidates supporting Leave and a Leaver will assuredly become PM.
I also belief that the country will leave the EU in October. Parliament has already signed Article 50.
Most MPs from Conservative and Labour will look at the political landscape and not want to rock the boat and scupper their own future political career.
Whether the Europeans change their negotiating attitude towards UK and become more flexible remains to be seen. Overnight there have been massive changes/upsets throughout the continent.

The elections have put to bed many misleading statements by Remainers:
# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.
# The country knew what exactly what leaving the EU means and have dismissed any concerns
# Remainers claimed that youngsters should have had the vote and they would have voted Remain. Those youngsters are now of voting age and the Brexit vote has not been reduced.


Jesus wept OTC where to start.

1.) Over the continent the largest gains have been for green parties as a response to the climate crisis. Eurosceptic far right parties have seen gains in some countries, notably France and Italy, but overally haven't made much of an impact, regressing elsewhere, notably the Netherlands.
2.) 3 public votes? Where have you pulled this from? Leavers won the referendum FRAUDULENTLY and thats it!
3.) The country knows nothing, noones done their research, everyones just angry. Your response in this post is testament to that.
4.) Turnout in this election was much lower than the referendum as is always is and as was expected. Therefore any conclusions drawn from that have a huge caveat attached. Even so, your claim doesn’t add up. Remain parties combined vote share was 40%, No deal parties combined vote share was 35%. These are facts. What you have said is not a fact.

Do you want to know why your beloved Brexit project hasn't come to fruition after 3 years of struggle? The refusal to engage with any version of reality that appears to be ever so slightly inconvenient. Protest politicians sat in the back blaming away, who offer no solutions, no plan, no manifesto, nothing except more anger and division. Had the Leave and BeLeave campaigns not committed electoral fraud on a massive scale, there wouldn't be the mass support for a 2nd referendum. Had an actual brexit plan been proposed and made clear before the referendum, we could've just got on with making that plan work with a democratic mandate that actually knew what the plan was, rather than the reality where it was all things to all people. Had a brexiteer actually stepped up to the plate to deliver what they promised rather than letting May take the PM job unopposed then maybe they'd have sorted something out, but they didn't. You know why they didn't? Because they knew their Brexit myth was about to hit Brexit reality. It couldn't be all things to all people, it couldn't deliver what they promised without some severe repercussions.

This country has got the quality of politicians it deserves right now, and it makes me very angry to see Farage's Trumpian brigade of disaster capitalists and fascist sympathisers bringing a betrayal of everything the wartime generation fought for and my generation is trying to aspire to, built on a foundation of wilfully ignoring the complicated reality of what is actually required to make brexit work.
Last edited by dursleydog on Mon May 27, 2019 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Mon May 27, 2019 11:20 am

The other problem causing this country to be divided is coming from remainers showering anyone on the leave side with insults or assuming they are bigots and or uneducated in their views. It's not helping, many leavers are not bigots and have perfectly valid reasons for their opinions and have every right to express them imo.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 11:47 am

Kentstripe wrote:The other problem causing this country to be divided is coming from remainers showering anyone on the leave side with insults or assuming they are bigots and or uneducated in their views. It's not helping, many leavers are not bigots and have perfectly valid reasons for their opinions and have every right to express them imo.


You are right and I apologise to you and OTC. I’ve edited my post to tone down the language used while still making what I think are some very valid points about the nature of the Leave message. It’s difficult to not get emotional about seeing this issue from either side atm, I feel so much about this country is being ripped away in the name of brexit, and the amount of fake news being banded about is thoroughly depressing and needs to be fought.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Silver Surfer » Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:An indecisive result in European Elections.

The elections have put to bed many misleading statements by Remainers:
# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.
# The country knew what exactly what leaving the EU means and have dismissed any concerns
# Remainers claimed that youngsters should have had the vote and they would have voted Remain. Those youngsters are now of voting age and the Brexit vote has not been reduced.


Tom, are you serious??? 32% for the brexit party. How can you call that a win. All it shows is that a large minority think Brexit is the most important issue at the moment.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Mon May 27, 2019 1:04 pm

dursleydog wrote:
Kentstripe wrote:The other problem causing this country to be divided is coming from remainers showering anyone on the leave side with insults or assuming they are bigots and or uneducated in their views. It's not helping, many leavers are not bigots and have perfectly valid reasons for their opinions and have every right to express them imo.


You are right and I apologise to you and OTC. I’ve edited my post to tone down the language used while still making what I think are some very valid points about the nature of the Leave message. It’s difficult to not get emotional about seeing this issue from either side atm, I feel so much about this country is being ripped away in the name of brexit, and the amount of fake news being banded about is thoroughly depressing and needs to be fought.


Thanks it's appreciated.

I do agree with a number of your points btw, but I feel that in order for this country to become less divided/angry people need to respect each other's opinions and not become too entrenched on either side.

Like you I'm a millennial btw.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Timb » Mon May 27, 2019 2:45 pm

Agreed KS. Although I'm not a millennial...
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Mon May 27, 2019 2:55 pm

Timb wrote:Agreed KS. Although I'm not a millennial...


Haha my point was more that it's not necessarily a case of it being a generation thing. I don't believe that all older voters are out of touch, uneducated or bigots for wanting to leave the EU. Nor is it solely the older generation that dislike the way the EU operates.

There are people from all sorts of different demographics on both sides, so remainers trying to stereotype people from the opposite camp in order to try and paint them all as uneducated bigots who don't know what they're voting for isn't going to help the situation.
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Re: Brexit

Postby michael » Mon May 27, 2019 5:10 pm

Kentstripe wrote:
Timb wrote:Agreed KS. Although I'm not a millennial...


Haha my point was more that it's not necessarily a case of it being a generation thing. I don't believe that all older voters are out of touch, uneducated or bigots for wanting to leave the EU. Nor is it solely the older generation that dislike the way the EU operates.

There are people from all sorts of different demographics on both sides, so remainers trying to stereotype people from the opposite camp in order to try and paint them all as uneducated bigots who don't know what they're voting for isn't going to help the situation.
.

-well i don't know any young people who are leavers .
-i am of the 'older generation' but think it is terrible that the young (and future ) of this country are being cast aside by the oldies.
( i do accept that the only good to come out of this is that it has 'taught' the young that they must vote in future )

the current worse thing is that the next prime minister will be chosen by about 160000 from the blue rinse brigade who will chose a hard brexiteer because unlike you KS -i think the vast majority are either absolute bigots or must be simply stupid, as there is absolutely no economic reason to leave the EEC .
I look forward to the EU negotiators continuing to run rings around the british (and the likes of Johnson,Raab,Leadsom or whoever it may be as PM who will eventually realise that we are not important,and just full of delusion about our own self importance as a country .

maybe it shows a lack of ambition/courage/finance on my behalf-but unfortunately, i am now probably too old to live elsewhere in the world .
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