Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby Fartvs Antiqvvs » Mon May 27, 2019 5:35 pm

michael wrote:( i do accept that the only good to come out of this is that it has 'taught' the young that they must vote in future )


Possibly can't be bothered to get off their posteriors and get their downward angled necks out of the smart phone or tablet michael?
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Re: Brexit

Postby michael » Mon May 27, 2019 6:42 pm

sort of agree-but i have to concede that when i was 18-20 i was not getting too excited about voting, and had my own neck either in a pint of cider or better still intertwined with that of a girl.

Fortunately, my 'elders' were sensible enough to take us into the EU -not out of it like today
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 pm

From what I’ve seen, it’s more a case of there’s enough to be stressed about already, why add politics to the list, especially when it’s pretty depressing and dull
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Re: Brexit

Postby NewForestRover » Mon May 27, 2019 7:02 pm

dursleydog wrote:
The only way out of this is to reduce it to a binary question once more. A 2nd referendum between remain and a brexit option (no deal looks most popular). A legally binding vote, unlike the last one, to give the electoral commission the power to ensure it is legally and fairly run. A legally binding vote that takes the decision out of a struggling parliaments hand and back into our own.

I know brexiteers will say we shouldn’t need a 2nd referendum. And they’re right, we shouldn’t have to need one. But that doesn’t change the fact that we do. It doesn’t change the fact that the single biggest threat to our democracy right now is a knowingly fraudulent result being allowed to stand. If brexit happens, let it be by fair means, with a clear direction, and a legally obtained democratic mandate.
That shouldn’t be too much to ask.

I feel the country I love is being slowly torn away from me right now. The country that founded the nhs, the country that built the welfare state, the country that stood up to fascism and welcomed immigrants from Europe and beyond in that fight for a better society, the country that stood on the world stage and didn’t pander to easy answers but stuck to effective solutions. That country seems to be dying at the hands of those who claim to love it the most, and it’s so very sad.


^^ this ^^

This election was mainly about Brexit.

Those that voted Brexit Party want to leave no matter what.

Those that voted Lib Dems and Greens either don't want to leave at all or want a 2nd referendum. And they received more votes.

It's a long time since we voted to leave the EU when many of us didn't really know what leaving meant and what we were voting for.

We were listening to MP's who made it sound so easy, having our country back as our own, being independent, not needing anyone else and how much better off we would be. The consequences weren't mentioned.
So leaving sounded like a good idea at the time.

It doesn't seem like such a good idea now though after realising what it actually means. And I'm sure many others feel the same.

We should all be able to vote again now that we are better informed.

If Leave still get more votes, it will be a fairer result and PM (whoever it is) will have to deal with it.

But if Remain win?...............
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 7:40 pm

NewForestRover wrote:
dursleydog wrote:
The only way out of this is to reduce it to a binary question once more. A 2nd referendum between remain and a brexit option (no deal looks most popular). A legally binding vote, unlike the last one, to give the electoral commission the power to ensure it is legally and fairly run. A legally binding vote that takes the decision out of a struggling parliaments hand and back into our own.

I know brexiteers will say we shouldn’t need a 2nd referendum. And they’re right, we shouldn’t have to need one. But that doesn’t change the fact that we do. It doesn’t change the fact that the single biggest threat to our democracy right now is a knowingly fraudulent result being allowed to stand. If brexit happens, let it be by fair means, with a clear direction, and a legally obtained democratic mandate.
That shouldn’t be too much to ask.

I feel the country I love is being slowly torn away from me right now. The country that founded the nhs, the country that built the welfare state, the country that stood up to fascism and welcomed immigrants from Europe and beyond in that fight for a better society, the country that stood on the world stage and didn’t pander to easy answers but stuck to effective solutions. That country seems to be dying at the hands of those who claim to love it the most, and it’s so very sad.


^^ this ^^

This election was mainly about Brexit.

Those that voted Brexit Party want to leave no matter what.

Those that voted Lib Dems and Greens either don't want to leave at all or want a 2nd referendum. And they received more votes.

It's a long time since we voted to leave the EU when many of us didn't really know what leaving meant and what we were voting for.

We were listening to MP's who made it sound so easy, having our country back as our own, being independent, not needing anyone else and how much better off we would be. The consequences weren't mentioned.
So leaving sounded like a good idea at the time.

It doesn't seem like such a good idea now though after realising what it actually means. And I'm sure many others feel the same.

We should all be able to vote again now that we are better informed.

If Leave still get more votes, it will be a fairer result and PM (whoever it is) will have to deal with it.

But if Remain win?...............


If remain win (Big if. My gut feel is that remain would win but it would be very very close), then we have to reform our parliamentary system and acknowledge why people voted leave in the first place. Whoever finds themselves PM at the end of it all will have to deal with the discontentment at source.

Let’s rebuild our manufacturing industry by investing in renewable energy production and aim to be a world leader in designing, building, and exporting the means of generating tidal, wind, and wave power.

Let’s ease austerity by properly taxing mega companies, with the aid of the EU so the entire European block can unite against tax evasion.

Let’s reduce the inequality in our society and lower the cost of living so that a fair days work results in a fair days pay again.

No argument for remain can ever be made without making the argument for reform.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Mon May 27, 2019 8:01 pm

For those saying that it’s unfair to brand Leavers as fascists/racists/bigots etc...

True. Anyone can have any number of reasons to vote to leave the EU. However; the bulk of the vocal Brexit campaign are openly bigoted, racist, xenophobic etc and have roots in far right organisations. So if you’re voting on the same side then you’re reinforcing their mindset. You can’t conveniently sit by and claim moral neutrality just because you believe your particular reasons to be clean.

If people supported Hitler because of the natty Nazi uniforms it wouldn’t make them blameless.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 8:33 pm

TreeHugger wrote:For those saying that it’s unfair to brand Leavers as fascists/racists/bigots etc...

True. Anyone can have any number of reasons to vote to leave the EU. However; the bulk of the vocal Brexit campaign are openly bigoted, racist, xenophobic etc and have roots in far right organisations. So if you’re voting on the same side then you’re reinforcing their mindset. You can’t conveniently sit by and claim moral neutrality just because you believe your particular reasons to be clean.

If people supported Hitler because of the natty Nazi uniforms it wouldn’t make them blameless.


True-ish. It is completely unfair to label anyone who votes for the likes of the Brexit party as racist.
However, what is demonstrably true is that racists have been emboldened by the success of brexit and the Brexit party, and racism is clearly entering mainstream politics. Boris Johnson and his history of islamophobia is a prime (ministerial) example.
I saw a deeply worrying clip of Brexit Party activists at the results announcement yesterday booing the speech of a Muslim MEP (who I think was Green Party), including many cries of “go home” to someone born and bred in the UK. It is far too common within the party for it to be acceptable, and I for one cannot see the leadership lifting a finger to condemn it because frankly they think in exactly the same way.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Mon May 27, 2019 8:43 pm

Silver Surfer wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:An indecisive result in European Elections.

The elections have put to bed many misleading statements by Remainers:
# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.
# The country knew what exactly what leaving the EU means and have dismissed any concerns
# Remainers claimed that youngsters should have had the vote and they would have voted Remain. Those youngsters are now of voting age and the Brexit vote has not been reduced.


Tom, are you serious??? 32% for the brexit party. How can you call that a win. All it shows is that a large minority think Brexit is the most important issue at the moment.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Mon May 27, 2019 8:55 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.


Amongst the monumental piles of tripe that have been spouted over the last three and a half years, this takes a very large biscuit.
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Re: Brexit

Postby twoguns » Mon May 27, 2019 9:12 pm

To be honest I strongly object to being labelled a fascist, racist, bigot and nazi sympathiser because I voted to leave the EU. I obviously have a different view and it's largely around fat cats, common fisheries policy, beaurucrats and UK tax money supporting these fat cat cats.

I also acknowledge that some of the money is reinvested and in Cornwall we have had a fair share but why send it to the EU and then recieve it back and all the administration costs that come out of it when we could do it centrally here in the first place.

That hateful woman that resigned just last week consigned the steel industry and it's support network to the dustbin for the sake of £100M when we give the EU billions.

I spoil my ballot paper because none of the mainstream parties represent me. Bring back Lord Sutch and his monster raving lunatic party cos the lunatics are currently running the asylum.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Mon May 27, 2019 10:24 pm

twoguns wrote:To be honest I strongly object to being labelled a fascist, racist, bigot and nazi sympathiser because I voted to leave the EU. I obviously have a different view and it's largely around fat cats, common fisheries policy, beaurucrats and UK tax money supporting these fat cat cats.

I also acknowledge that some of the money is reinvested and in Cornwall we have had a fair share but why send it to the EU and then recieve it back and all the administration costs that come out of it when we could do it centrally here in the first place.

That hateful woman that resigned just last week consigned the steel industry and it's support network to the dustbin for the sake of £100M when we give the EU billions.

I spoil my ballot paper because none of the mainstream parties represent me. Bring back Lord Sutch and his monster raving lunatic party cos the lunatics are currently running the asylum.


The English Democrats openly supported the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Myanmar. They openly support neo-fascist organisations and nazi sympathisers. They campaign on an islamophobic and anti-immigration manifesto. This isn’t like the brexit party where there’s a lot of bad apples, this is an institutionally racist party.
If you don’t want to labelled those things (which btw, no one has?), I’d suggest not aligning yourself with people who very much are all of those things.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Mon May 27, 2019 11:04 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.


Amongst the monumental piles of tripe that have been spouted over the last three and a half years, this takes a very large biscuit.


TOC,

A memory jogger to you for confirmation of accuracy of my statement:

2014 European Elections: most seats Ukip [24]
2016 Referendum: Leave the European Union 17,410,742 [Majority of 1,269,501] 51.89%
2019 European Election: most seats Brexit Party [32]

I repeat that UK has been consistent over past five [5] years in voting three [3] times to leave the EU.
Not tripe at all.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Tue May 28, 2019 12:57 am

Tomiswalking wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:I wonder what will happen to UKIP.


Washed up has-been's who will consigned to history.
But they were instrumental in getting the Brexit debate into the open.


I expect a debate to be intelligent, generaly this has been ill informed argument at best. The only saving grace for me is that the a lot of people who have voted brexit used it as a vote for change a change to politics. I hope we move forwards to a proportaional system of voting in this country, so that we are ALL better represented.



I once thought proportional voting might be fairer, but the risk with that is the we'll never get a parliament where one party has a majority. I can't see how that sort of scenario helps.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Silver Surfer » Tue May 28, 2019 8:57 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
I repeat that UK has been consistent over past five [5] years in voting three [3] times to leave the EU.
Not tripe at all.


I agree that the Brexit party held the largest number of seats, but have nowhere near a majority. The majority voted for anti-Brexit parties. Farage's crowd got 32% of the vote. That is no mandate for the major disruption he is proposing.

If the Brexit faction are so sure of themselves, why not agree to a second referendum?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue May 28, 2019 9:05 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:# Leavers have now won three [3] public votes over the past five [5] years. The public have therefore been consistent in wanting to leave the EU.


Amongst the monumental piles of tripe that have been spouted over the last three and a half years, this takes a very large biscuit.


TOC,

A memory jogger to you for confirmation of accuracy of my statement:

2014 European Elections: most seats Ukip [24]
2016 Referendum: Leave the European Union 17,410,742 [Majority of 1,269,501] 51.89%
2019 European Election: most seats Brexit Party [32]

I repeat that UK has been consistent over past five [5] years in voting three [3] times to leave the EU.
Not tripe at all.


Sorry, to say that EU elections were about leaving the EU is wrong.
To say that the EU elections were “won” is simplistically childish.

They were not FPTP elections. They were elections to return a selection of representatives who then joined representatives from other countries. They form a number of groups across the political spectrum and decisions are made accordingly,
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue May 28, 2019 9:08 am

paulK wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:I wonder what will happen to UKIP.


Washed up has-been's who will consigned to history.
But they were instrumental in getting the Brexit debate into the open.


I expect a debate to be intelligent, generaly this has been ill informed argument at best. The only saving grace for me is that the a lot of people who have voted brexit used it as a vote for change a change to politics. I hope we move forwards to a proportaional system of voting in this country, so that we are ALL better represented.



I once thought proportional voting might be fairer, but the risk with that is the we'll never get a parliament where one party has a majority. I can't see how that sort of scenario helps.


You’d have a Parliament where the elected members would have to work together, rather than play policy ping pong “yah boo sucks, you lost” politics, which is not very adult.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tomiswalking » Tue May 28, 2019 9:48 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:I wonder what will happen to UKIP.


Washed up has-been's who will consigned to history.
But they were instrumental in getting the Brexit debate into the open.


I expect a debate to be intelligent, generaly this has been ill informed argument at best. The only saving grace for me is that the a lot of people who have voted brexit used it as a vote for change a change to politics. I hope we move forwards to a proportaional system of voting in this country, so that we are ALL better represented.



I once thought proportional voting might be fairer, but the risk with that is the we'll never get a parliament where one party has a majority. I can't see how that sort of scenario helps.


You’d have a Parliament where the elected members would have to work together, rather than play policy ping pong “yah boo sucks, you lost” politics, which is not very adult.


I agree, I used to think that party politics was a really effective way of organising a democracy. Then I watched debates in the houses of parliament and it became obvious that party politics is not a good way of communicating or representing. It's simply not fit for purpose, and not a system I want to hand over to my children.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Tue May 28, 2019 11:17 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:I wonder what will happen to UKIP.


Washed up has-been's who will consigned to history.
But they were instrumental in getting the Brexit debate into the open.


I expect a debate to be intelligent, generaly this has been ill informed argument at best. The only saving grace for me is that the a lot of people who have voted brexit used it as a vote for change a change to politics. I hope we move forwards to a proportaional system of voting in this country, so that we are ALL better represented.



I once thought proportional voting might be fairer, but the risk with that is the we'll never get a parliament where one party has a majority. I can't see how that sort of scenario helps.


You’d have a Parliament where the elected members would have to work together, rather than play policy ping pong “yah boo sucks, you lost” politics, which is not very adult.


:lol: :lol: :lol: You wish :roll: :roll: :roll:

It would be a permanent debacle a la Brexit
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 28, 2019 12:02 pm

paulK wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: You wish :roll: :roll: :roll:

It would be a permanent debacle a la Brexit


The Brexit debacle was started the moment the conservatives won an outright majority despite only getting 37% of the vote, thanks to FPTP.
(Of course if that election had been PR we would have likely had a Tory/UKIP coalition and the same end result anyway, but trying to make the point FPTP doesn't guarantee stability.)
What PR does ensure is that if a party burns too many bridges, and is utterly unwilling to compromise with others, then they automatically rule themselves out of ever achieving power. That will have an incredible natural selection effect in the long term on our politicians, the current batch of which couldn't agree on what colour the door to no.10 is.
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Re: Brexit

Postby GETCARTER » Tue May 28, 2019 6:41 pm

Come on Nigel - bring it on my son !. Was impressed when we spoke together last year, and i have not altered my view of you or your party.Look forward to the future with you having an impact.
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