Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:48 pm

Do you need to be so abrasive EE?

Not everyone agrees with you about stuff, why not accept that rather then try and insult them and call them racists?

You come across very immature at times, what people need to realise is that everyone on both sides need to respect each other's opinions and look for common ground, otherwise the divide just deepens which isn't good for the country.

The shouty left are just as damaging as the far right in that respect.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:03 pm

Kentstripe wrote:Do you need to be so abrasive EE?

Not everyone agrees with you about stuff, why not accept that rather then try and insult them and call them racists?

You come across very immature at times, what people need to realise is that everyone on both sides need to respect each other's opinions and look for common ground, otherwise the divide just deepens which isn't good for the country.

The shouty left are just as damaging as the far right in that respect.


Sorry I don’t mean to be abrasive. It is not a case of agreeing or disagreeing; racism is racism. People may agree or disagree on whether it is ok to let racism go unchallenged or to elect a racist PM, but the objective fact of whether something is racist or not is not for me or others to challenge.

As I previously said, I am far from left and believe in capitalism only with a need to tackle climate change through bettter business and consumer behaviour. I have voted Conservative in the past.

I don’t regard racism or discrimination/bigotry to an issue of left or right. You will find racists, homophobes and misogynists on the far left, far right and everything in between. You will find racists, homophobes and misogynists amongst those who voted Remain and those who voted Leave and those who didn’t vote at all. But I wasn’t talking about Brexit.

The divide is between those who think racism and discrimination is wrong and should not be tolerated in society and those who are happy for racism and discrimination to go unchallenged, or in the case of Corbyn and Boris, happy to vote for a racist/discriminator.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:10 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Paul,
You are fighting a needless battle. Virtually none who voted OUT is a racist: you and I both know that.
But we both also know that some of those who did not vote OUT are falsely using the extremely emotive RACE card to try and undermine democracy.
That is utterly contemptible and you'd be best advised to let these anti-democrats wallow in their own sad dark world by just ignoring them.
We can both put our hands on our hearts and say we have greater faith in the British public than them and we trust our people to ensure our future is bright. Which after we leave the EU is assuredly so.


Not only a needless battle but also the wrong battle. I am not talking about Brexit - people voted for it for a range of valid reasons and with a range of interpretations of what it meant.

My question and point is unrelated to Brexit. Paul said he is happy to vote for a racist Prime Minister candidate. I am just curious to know how racist, or discriminatory in other ways, a candidate has to be before Paul will no longer vote for them.

So Paul, forget about Brexit and tell us on the scale of 0 to 10 of racism (or other discrimination) at what level are you know longer happy to elect a candidate to be PM?


E-E, how do you expect me to rank myself on a scale that is not even defined :roll: :roll: :roll:

On the other hand, I would ask you, on a scale of 0 to 1, where zero is none, how do you rate your right to judge the decisions and morals, or suggested lack of, of others.

If it is not 0, on what basis?


I previously defined the scale.

0 being a PM who is not racist/discriminatory at all, and 10 being one who not only is discriminatory but commits atrocities against minorities they dislike e.g. Hitler.

I am not judging or looking to judge any one. It is not about ‘decisions’ or ‘morals’ - racism is objective, ie someone is either racist or they aren’t. And then of those who are, some are more overt and extreme than others.

To help you with the scale:

The NZ PM is probably zero. Canada’s a 1 (they aren’t discriminatory but don’t look to change the status quo or challenge those who are).

Anything 2 or more means the person is racist.

Boris realistically would be a 5.
Farage a 7
Trump an 8 or 9

So, again I am not judging morals, I am simply asking how much racism/discrimination you tolerate. You state you would happily vote for Boris, a 5 on the scale. Would you also be happy to vote for Farage to be PM or would you say anything past a 6 is too unpalatable?


You aren't judging morals? From the person who posted about me "You aren’t racist but you are happy to elect racists to power. Give over." :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll:

I don't have a clue how you arrived at your ratings above and neither do I care :roll:

To be honest, the satirical wit of Oscar Wilde comes to mind "My own business always bores me to death; I prefer other people’s"

Now, I've other things to deal with, so if you don't mind, let's just close all this here and now. In the words of Churchill.......... Ooops no. I guess I'd better not write it, even if that's what I'm thinking right now.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:11 pm

paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Paul,
You are fighting a needless battle. Virtually none who voted OUT is a racist: you and I both know that.
But we both also know that some of those who did not vote OUT are falsely using the extremely emotive RACE card to try and undermine democracy.
That is utterly contemptible and you'd be best advised to let these anti-democrats wallow in their own sad dark world by just ignoring them.
We can both put our hands on our hearts and say we have greater faith in the British public than them and we trust our people to ensure our future is bright. Which after we leave the EU is assuredly so.


Not only a needless battle but also the wrong battle. I am not talking about Brexit - people voted for it for a range of valid reasons and with a range of interpretations of what it meant.

My question and point is unrelated to Brexit. Paul said he is happy to vote for a racist Prime Minister candidate. I am just curious to know how racist, or discriminatory in other ways, a candidate has to be before Paul will no longer vote for them.

So Paul, forget about Brexit and tell us on the scale of 0 to 10 of racism (or other discrimination) at what level are you know longer happy to elect a candidate to be PM?


E-E, how do you expect me to rank myself on a scale that is not even defined :roll: :roll: :roll:

On the other hand, I would ask you, on a scale of 0 to 1, where zero is none, how do you rate your right to judge the decisions and morals, or suggested lack of, of others.

If it is not 0, on what basis?


I previously defined the scale.

0 being a PM who is not racist/discriminatory at all, and 10 being one who not only is discriminatory but commits atrocities against minorities they dislike e.g. Hitler.

I am not judging or looking to judge any one. It is not about ‘decisions’ or ‘morals’ - racism is objective, ie someone is either racist or they aren’t. And then of those who are, some are more overt and extreme than others.

To help you with the scale:

The NZ PM is probably zero. Canada’s a 1 (they aren’t discriminatory but don’t look to change the status quo or challenge those who are).

Anything 2 or more means the person is racist.

Boris realistically would be a 5.
Farage a 7
Trump an 8 or 9

So, again I am not judging morals, I am simply asking how much racism/discrimination you tolerate. You state you would happily vote for Boris, a 5 on the scale. Would you also be happy to vote for Farage to be PM or would you say anything past a 6 is too unpalatable?


You aren't judging morals? From the person who posted about me "You aren’t racist but you are happy to elect racists to power. Give over." :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll:

I don't have a clue how you arrived at your ratings above and neither do I care :roll:

To be honest, the satirical wit of Oscar Wilde comes to mind "My own business always bores me to death; I prefer other people’s"

Now, I've other things to deal with, so if you don't mind, let's just close all this here and now. In the words of Churchill.......... Ooops no. I guess I'd better not write it, even if that's what I'm thinking right now.


It is not a judgement of morals. Just an observation of fact. Boris Johnson has a track record of using racist language and making racist statements. You have stated you are happy to vote for him despite that. I am not passing judgement or commentary on that - merely observing statements made.

It is clear you don’t want to tell us what level of racism you would find too much to vote for. You have your reasons for that. So indeed, let’s leave it there.
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Re: Brexit

Postby voodoobluesman » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:12 am

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. The great divide.

Here's a good article worth reading:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Whether you voted remain or leave, we are not enemies, but this radicalisation on both sides is making us so.

I was in Waitrose the other day, just chatting to an older chap, and he said "I just get so angry nowadays". This is the mood of the Country now. Yes, there are politicians after their own ends (on both sides), but that's nothing new. Tony Blair took us into a war that a lot of people (possibly the majority) did not agree with, but this kind of tribalism didn't happen.

The rhetoric on this subject on here is not getting better, and starting to get a bit nasty. Starting to throw the race card around is demeaning the subject and not achieving anything.

We wonder how young disaffected Muslims get so easily radicalised. Well, here it is, happening to us. We're not quite there yet, but there are signs.

There are those around who are deliberately seeking to divide us. They have twitter accounts & facebook accounts. They are possibly putting money into both Leave and Remain at the same time, they may even be helping fund other groups like Britain First and Extinction Rebellion. They don't care who they fund as long as it creates division. Not just in the UK, but in many countries.

This is not a time for sides, this is a time to stick together.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:41 am

The Old TomCat wrote:[Paul,
You are fighting a needless battle. Virtually none who voted OUT is a racist: you and I both know that.
But we both also know that some of those who did not vote OUT are falsely using the extremely emotive RACE card to try and undermine democracy.
That is utterly contemptible and you'd be best advised to let these anti-democrats wallow in their own sad dark world by just ignoring them.
We can both put our hands on our hearts and say we have greater faith in the British public than them and we trust our people to ensure our future is bright. Which after we leave the EU is assuredly so.


Not so sure about the future OTC, but faith and trust, yes. You're so right about E-E tho'. He/she is quite delusional. Even thinks I'd be happy to vote for Boris and claims I said so :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll:

Quite frankly, I've never had to and hopefully won't ever be in the position where I felt I had to. With a bit of luck, he'll deliver Brexit. Then I guess it's a question of waiting and seeing. The next thing I see looming is a coalition government :?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:05 am

voodoobluesman wrote:And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. The great divide.

Here's a good article worth reading:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Whether you voted remain or leave, we are not enemies, but this radicalisation on both sides is making us so.

I was in Waitrose the other day, just chatting to an older chap, and he said "I just get so angry nowadays". This is the mood of the Country now. Yes, there are politicians after their own ends (on both sides), but that's nothing new. Tony Blair took us into a war that a lot of people (possibly the majority) did not agree with, but this kind of tribalism didn't happen.

The rhetoric on this subject on here is not getting better, and starting to get a bit nasty. Starting to throw the race card around is demeaning the subject and not achieving anything.

We wonder how young disaffected Muslims get so easily radicalised. Well, here it is, happening to us. We're not quite there yet, but there are signs.

There are those around who are deliberately seeking to divide us. They have twitter accounts & facebook accounts. They are possibly putting money into both Leave and Remain at the same time, they may even be helping fund other groups like Britain First and Extinction Rebellion. They don't care who they fund as long as it creates division. Not just in the UK, but in many countries.

This is not a time for sides, this is a time to stick together.


My discussion of racism was not related to Brexit. There are racists on the Leave side and racists on the Remain side.

The best way for the country to not be divided is for racists to stop being racist.

To say that those against racism (whether Leave or Remain) have to stick together with racists (whether Leave or Remain) is nonsense.

Condoning and accepting racism will create more division amongst groups in our society. Stamping out racism will reduce division.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tomiswalking » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:20 am

It's easy to label the people you dont agree with. But surely OTC it would be better to support democracy and not have prime minister who uses racist language? Why cant we have both?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:50 am

Supporting democracy would mean recognising that people may change their minds. Unfortunately the rabid Leaver cackophoney is that The Will of the People Must Be Done!

What Boris is doing is making sure that the Tory Party doesn’t lose too many supporters to The Brexit Party. He cars not one hoot for the country, nor anyone else.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Speaking of democracy, the plans to try and suspend parliament until after the deadline has passed to force a no deal through against the wishes of parliament and, both by extension and by polling data*, against the wishes of the British people, are utterly abhorrent. It’s an insult to the very foundations of our democracy and a very very dangerous lurch towards repressive forms of running a country.

*i know polling data can be a bit iffy, but it’s usually in the ball park. The support for a no deal isn’t even close to 50% and is well outside the margin for error.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:18 pm

Tomiswalking wrote:It's easy to label the people you dont agree with. But surely OTC it would be better to support democracy and not have prime minister who uses racist language? Why cant we have both?


The use of old fashioned words is unwise I'll agree but the proof of the pudding that Boris is a rounded guy is that as PM he has the most ethnically diverse Government Cabinet in history, he has also won two terms as London Mayor - the most ethnically diverse city in the UK.
His words may deter some who claim they would not vote for him because of what he has written in his capacity as a newspaper columnist but the truth is they would probably never vote Conservative.
But compare and contrast Boris's record to that of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who has turned non-racist Labour into the most anti-Semitic political party in UK since the days of Oswald Mosley and his Black Shirts in the years before the Second World War.
No sane voter could vote Labour until that has been remedied.

BTW it is others who are attaching unfounded racist labels to Brexiteers. I have nothing to apologise for, unlike them.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:37 pm

dursleydog wrote:Speaking of democracy, the plans to try and suspend parliament until after the deadline has passed to force a no deal through against the wishes of parliament and, both by extension and by polling data*, against the wishes of the British people, are utterly abhorrent. It’s an insult to the very foundations of our democracy and a very very dangerous lurch towards repressive forms of running a country.

*i know polling data can be a bit iffy, but it’s usually in the ball park. The support for a no deal isn’t even close to 50% and is well outside the margin for error.


I think the threat of suspending Parliament has largely passed.
There are clear signs that MPs from all parties are accepting that UK will be leaving the EU on October 31st.
Just needs a handful of previous remainers to confirm in Parliament that they accept the result of the Referendum for it to happen.
And the numbers accepting Brexit are growing.
Brexit will happen without Parliament being suspended.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:23 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:
dursleydog wrote:Speaking of democracy, the plans to try and suspend parliament until after the deadline has passed to force a no deal through against the wishes of parliament and, both by extension and by polling data*, against the wishes of the British people, are utterly abhorrent. It’s an insult to the very foundations of our democracy and a very very dangerous lurch towards repressive forms of running a country.

*i know polling data can be a bit iffy, but it’s usually in the ball park. The support for a no deal isn’t even close to 50% and is well outside the margin for error.


I think the threat of suspending Parliament has largely passed.
There are clear signs that MPs from all parties are accepting that UK will be leaving the EU on October 31st.
Just needs a handful of previous remainers to confirm in Parliament that they accept the result of the Referendum for it to happen.
And the numbers accepting Brexit are growing.
Brexit will happen without Parliament being suspended.


Brexit will. But what about a No Deal Brexit?
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:07 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
What Boris is doing is making sure that the Tory Party doesn’t lose too many supporters to The Brexit Party. He cares not one hoot for the country, nor anyone else.


That's an interesting statement ToC. Over my many years and experience I have come to the conclusion that in politics it is always about gaining voters and not losing them to other parties. The fact that this time it is about Brexit is immaterial. There is always something.

As for your second sentence, I'd suggest that's just opinion and again, could be labelled against any politician that is disagreed with from time-to-time, on Brexit or otherwise.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:31 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
What Boris is doing is making sure that the Tory Party doesn’t lose too many supporters to The Brexit Party. He cares not one hoot for the country, nor anyone else.


That's an interesting statement ToC. Over my many years and experience I have come to the conclusion that in politics it is always about gaining voters and not losing them to other parties. The fact that this time it is about Brexit is immaterial. There is always something.

As for your second sentence, I'd suggest that's just opinion and again, could be labelled against any politician that is disagreed with from time-to-time, on Brexit or otherwise.


Very true, although very rare that a government pursues a policy against the recommendations of the majority of economists and policy think tanks, business groups and sector bodies, academic researchers, Bank of England and Trade Unions.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Fartvs Antiqvvs » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:00 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:
Very true, although very rare that a government pursues a policy against the recommendations of the majority of economists and policy think tanks, business groups and sector bodies, academic researchers, Bank of England and Trade Unions.


Scaredy Cats! :lol:
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Nos venit!
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Re: Brexit

Postby SoSlow » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:10 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:But compare and contrast Boris's record to that of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who has turned non-racist Labour into the most anti-Semitic political party in UK since the days of Oswald Mosley and his Black Shirts in the years before the Second World War.
No sane voter could vote Labour until that has been remedied.

BTW it is others who are attaching unfounded racist labels to Brexiteers. I have nothing to apologise for, unlike them.


OTC please can you stop the hyperbole about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. Anti-Semitism is abhorrent and the Labour Party has not, in my opinion, been swift enough or thorough enough in its response to the cases raised but to say it is the most anti Semitic political party since the days of Oswald Mosley is ridiculous. As a Labour Party member I have not witnessed any racism of any form in any Labour meeting or social event I have ever attended and would have challenged it if I had. I could just have been lucky but studies such as the one mentioned here

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... al-parties

suggest that the perceived level of antisemitism in the party is much higher than the actual levels. The study is unlikely to be completely accurate (what could be apart from an incredibly well designed census) but I would imagine that the implication that the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is lower than the level in the Conservative Party or at worse of a similar level is a very likely one.

The level of anti-Semitism in a political party is not a contest and any instance of racism is should not be tolerated but can you please stop talking up this topic as if it was just an issue in the Labour Party and can we just agree that any instance of racism in any political party should not be tolerated be that anti-Semitism, Islamophobia or any other form.

Please also see this article from the Gazette on the issue

https://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news/17 ... i-semitic/
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Re: Brexit

Postby Silver Surfer » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:32 pm

Someone seems to feel it is necessary to talk up a perceived antisemitic issue in Labour to try and divert attention from the blatant lies of the Brexiteers. Much easier to take the Trump route which is to ignore their own lies and invent issues about their opponents.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:47 pm

SoSlow wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:But compare and contrast Boris's record to that of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who has turned non-racist Labour into the most anti-Semitic political party in UK since the days of Oswald Mosley and his Black Shirts in the years before the Second World War.
No sane voter could vote Labour until that has been remedied.

BTW it is others who are attaching unfounded racist labels to Brexiteers. I have nothing to apologise for, unlike them.


OTC please can you stop the hyperbole about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. Anti-Semitism is abhorrent and the Labour Party has not, in my opinion, been swift enough or thorough enough in its response to the cases raised but to say it is the most anti Semitic political party since the days of Oswald Mosley is ridiculous. As a Labour Party member I have not witnessed any racism of any form in any Labour meeting or social event I have ever attended and would have challenged it if I had. I could just have been lucky but studies such as the one mentioned here

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... al-parties

suggest that the perceived level of antisemitism in the party is much higher than the actual levels. The study is unlikely to be completely accurate (what could be apart from an incredibly well designed census) but I would imagine that the implication that the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is lower than the level in the Conservative Party or at worse of a similar level is a very likely one.

The level of anti-Semitism in a political party is not a contest and any instance of racism is should not be tolerated but can you please stop talking up this topic as if it was just an issue in the Labour Party and can we just agree that any instance of racism in any political party should not be tolerated be that anti-Semitism, Islamophobia or any other form.

Please also see this article from the Gazette on the issue

https://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news/17 ... i-semitic/


Labour has a huge anti-semitism problem compounded by the awful response. It cannot be defended or justified.

Try being a Jewish woman on Twitter - the abuse I and others get from Corbyn/Momentum supporters is horrendous. Yes it is no worse and probably better than racism in the current Conservative flock but it is frightening and the reason why I am so passionate and angry about racism in politics in this country.
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Re: Brexit

Postby West Terrace » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:47 pm

I don't know about your experiences, EE, but as someone who spends his time winding people up I am not surprised that you get abuse (although I don't condone it!). I can't easily become a Jewish woman but the ones I speak to don't agree that this is a widespread problem in the Labour Party. All racism is abhorrent and needs to be weeded out of all organisations but to compare the Labour Party to Moseley's Black Shirts is ridiculous! Extremist language and hyperbole will never help to bring people together as this Brexit 'debate' shows.
Last edited by West Terrace on Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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