Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:43 pm

TreeHugger wrote:I’m happy to pin my colours to the mast and make it clear that I’m a ‘remoaner’ (in case you couldn’t tell). No one has yet given me a good reason to leave the EU. Every single reason I’ve heard up to now is more flawed than the current arrangement itself.


GOOD SENSIBLE REASONS FOR UK TO LEAVE THE EU

# The EU centralised power and is the wrong way to go.
People thrive most in societies in which power is distributed as thinly and widely as possible. They are happier, healthier, wealthier, freer, and achieve more.

# Fringe nations, such as Norway, Switzerland, Iceland have dramatically out performed their EU neighbours per capita.
More importantly, given the EU’s restrictive trade practices with other nations, these nations are free to establish trade deals with other countries, as the Swiss have done with China.
With 65 million citizens and a much larger economy, Britain under Brexit would be in a much stronger position to negotiate good and strong deals that reflects our size.

# Around 65% of regulation is now set in Brussels. It is of a one-size-fits-all variety, and so often inappropriate to local circumstances. Rather than facilitate progress, regulation hinders it.

# At the time of the referendum, there was 39% youth unemployment in Italy, 45% in Spain and 49% in Greece. Even while Europe’s economy is firing, its unemployment rate remains extraordinarily high compared to other nations with similar economies and growth.
But a bigger disaster is brewing within Italy. It’s called the “Sofferenza” – the suffering.
An Italian banking crisis could start a collapse of the euro and potentially the downfall of the European Union.

# As a percentage share, British trade with the EU has fallen by almost 20% since 1999. British trade with the US, on the other hand, has grown. We have no official trade deal with the US.
Britain is one of the two members of the EU which trades most with the rest of the world rather than inside the EU. And, were we to leave, we’d become its biggest exports market.
Some Remainers fail to notice that the EU is not just a free-trade area, but a customs union. It doesn’t just eliminate trade barriers [AV1] , it creates a common tariff for all its members that impedes free trade with the rest of the world. And that barrier is set at a high level.
If UK can escape it, trade with the rest of the world would flourish.

# Further integration with the EU means economic decline
When Britain joined the Common Market in 1973, the EU (as it is now) produced 38% of the world’s goods and services – 38% of global GDP.
In 1993, when the EU formally began, it produced just under 25%. Today the EU produces just 17%.
The obvious explanation for this is the rise of the Asian economies, which have taken on a bigger share of global GDP. But the US’s share has only fallen from 30% in 1973 to 22% today. That’s a 55% drop for the EU versus a 27% drop for the US!

# One of the biggest arguments for leaving the EU is that it is not a democratically accountable body. Currently, the EU has five presidents!
None of them were elected by you or me. What kind of “democratic union” are we in?

# 70% of land in the UK is owned by fewer than 6,000 people. Yet these people are not paying tax on the land they own, they are receiving subsidies for it instead. Landowners are being paid by the EU to own land.
Of the EU budget, 40% goes to agricultural policy. This has created vast amounts of waste. It has propped up inefficient businesses that have failed to modernise. It has re-enforced monopolies which should be broken up.
Worst of all, it has meant that African farmers have been unable to compete, depriving millions of a livelihood (not to mention cheaper food for the rest of us).

# We had to cede ownership of our waters to gain EU membership under The Common Fisheries Policy. What was once a huge industry and the largest fishing fleet in Europe has all but disappeared.
The French, Italians, Spanish and Greeks had fished out the Mediterranean. They were given access to our waters and our quota was reduced to 13% of the common resource.
The quotas system brought about the dreadful practice of discards (putting dead fish back in the sea), but reformed EU regulation now means that rather than being put back in the water, it is brought back for landfill instead.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:45 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:
Kentstripe wrote:Personally I think now that people have a far clearer picture of what they're voting for, it should be put to the public again with 3 options. Deal, no deal or remain. Remain would need more then 50% of the overall vote to win. If the two leave options combined come to an overall majority then the one with the most votes from the two wins.


UK has already voted out so if another Referendum [extremely unlikely] the two options can only be:

# Clean break from EU
or
# Leave EU under 'backstop' arrangements.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Parliament will vote for Teresa May's proposal of leaving EU with a backstop because the hard Brexiteers fear any delay could scupper the Referendum result.


This sums up my point perfectly. Let’s blindly carry on down a path because that’s what we voted for....

Any future referendum can ask whatever question it wants and offer whatever answers it wants (provided they’re reasonable). There’s nothing stopping the government from offering a new ‘remain’ option at all. People are allowed to change their minds you know.

Brexiteers are all desperately aware that they’ve been rumbled in my opinion. They know all too well that many of them have had a change of heart and a new vote would be for a majority to remain.

Still haven’t heard a single good reason for Brexit yet. Most are related to xenophobia or racism.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:52 pm

TreeHugger wrote:
Still haven’t heard a single good reason for Brexit yet. Most are related to xenophobia or racism.


Not so.
Post above yours offers very good reasons why the UK voting public did the right thing by voting OUT.
And please note that my post made no mention to immigration [racism or xenophobia].
Last edited by The Old TomCat on Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 pm

Ok. I only got so far into point 1 and I have a question: what power do you think has been centralised to the EU. Can you give me some examples?
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:56 pm

TreeHugger wrote:Ok. I only got so far into point 1 and I have a question: what power do you think has been centralised to the EU. Can you give me some examples?


Suggest you read it in full before asking questions that have been covered in post.
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:05 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:
TreeHugger wrote:Ok. I only got so far into point 1 and I have a question: what power do you think has been centralised to the EU. Can you give me some examples?


Suggest you read it in full before asking questions that have been covered in post.


Having now read it all, I have two main points:

1. You talk a lot about trade and making Britain stronger. Do you not see how this forms part of a xenophobic argument? We’re not a third world country. We don’t need to be richer. How many countries have been lining up to make the trade deals that you eulogise about? I think it’s up to 6 currently isn’t it, including the Faroes? Compared to the 40 that a certain MP said he easily have in place by now.
2. What is the source of your arguments. Is it a UKIP leaflet?
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:11 pm

TreeHugger wrote:Ok. I only got so far into point 1 and I have a question: what power do you think has been centralised to the EU. Can you give me some examples?


Okay I did a bit of further research to try and answer your question.
The answer in overwhelmingly a lot and too much to repeat on a post.
Suggest you check it out for yourself:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/inddem/do ... ummary.pdf
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:17 pm

TreeHugger wrote:2. What is the source of your argument?



https://www.capitalandconflict.com/brex ... -leave-eu/
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:37 pm

Ah... thought I’d heard some of it before. It’s by Dominic Frisby. The comedian.

Didn’t he do a painful interview on Channel 4 news where he couldn’t answer any questions put to him about Brexit?

Views the whole Brexit thing from one angle only - capitalism. How do we make ourselves richer and stuff anyone else. No thought of working together for greater good. No thought of why the EU and it’s predecessors were established in the first place.

I’m alright Jack. Hoist the Union Flag and reminisce about old empire days...
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:47 pm

In 400 years time when we’re the richest nation in the world through selling that commodity that only we’ve got but that the rest of the world all needs to buy (suggestions anyone?), then we’ll have to do something else to satisfy our lust. Maybe Wayne Reece-Mogg XIV will hatch a plan to invade all our neighbours, steal their resources, and displace whichever ethnic groups we don’t like the look of, in favour of a pure-bred ‘British’ good egg who likes a head on his bitter and none of that foreign muck thank you very much.
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Re: Brexit

Postby king giraffe III » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:03 pm

TreeHugger wrote:Ah... thought I’d heard some of it before. It’s by Dominic Frisby. The comedian.

Didn’t he do a painful interview on Channel 4 news where he couldn’t answer any questions put to him about Brexit?

Views the whole Brexit thing from one angle only - capitalism. How do we make ourselves richer and stuff anyone else. No thought of working together for greater good. No thought of why the EU and it’s predecessors were established in the first place.

I’m alright Jack. Hoist the Union Flag and reminisce about old empire days...


Indeed. Money, money, money.

There is no good reason for leaving the EU. The counter arguments revolve around nothing but money and racism.
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Re: Brexit

Postby king giraffe III » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:06 pm

TreeHugger wrote:In 400 years time when we’re the richest nation in the world through selling that commodity that only we’ve got but that the rest of the world all needs to buy (suggestions anyone?), then we’ll have to do something else to satisfy our lust. Maybe Wayne Reece-Mogg XIV will hatch a plan to invade all our neighbours, steal their resources, and displace whichever ethnic groups we don’t like the look of, in favour of a pure-bred ‘British’ good egg who likes a head on his bitter and none of that foreign muck thank you very much.


We don't need the EU to sell that magic thing, Tree Hugger. There are bucketloads of advance orders from Namibia, Belize and Yemen. But we don't need Johnny Foreigner, right?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Timb » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:00 pm

Norway Switzerland and Iceland.

Probably best do a bit more personal research Tom.
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Re: Brexit

Postby paulK » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:06 pm

We're there some good reasons for staying in the EU - or did I miss them :?
My mileage; yours may vary, of course.....
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Re: What I'm watching on tv today.

Postby Too occasional fan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:56 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
For goodness sake, pay attention to what you write in your posts, or risk looking like a complete and utter idiot.

To remind you, you said “This is what the public want”. It is quoted above.


What on earth are you on about?
My posts are consistent.
The Referendum that was open to all voting Brits decided that UK leave the EU, which is what I said.
If you think I be a complete and utter idiot for stating the obvious, so be it. I care not.


You think 51.8% of the public voted for Brexit.

Yes/No

Tom Cat, I see you’ve been posting but you appear to have missed this.

Could you answer?
The gimlet of the forum.
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Re: Match thread from The New Lawn (Yeovil Town)

Postby Too occasional fan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:01 am

king giraffe III wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Haven't we banned fans for foul language before?

Surely unwarranted abuse of players and manager is not far from that?


You voted for Breggzit, yeah?


Wrong thread.
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Re: What I'm watching on tv today.

Postby paulK » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:41 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
You think 51.8% of the public voted for Brexit.

Yes/No


Yes I think 51.8% of the voted public for Brexit ;)

And No I don't think only 27% of the public voted for Brexit ;)
My mileage; yours may vary, of course.....
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Re: What I'm watching on tv today.

Postby Too occasional fan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:21 am

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
You think 51.8% of the public voted for Brexit.

Yes/No


Yes I think 51.8% of the voted public for Brexit ;)

And No I don't think only 27% of the public voted for Brexit ;)


Are you OTC’s media spokesperson now?
The gimlet of the forum.
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Re: Brexit

Postby man_of_kent » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:26 am

I'm confused by all the debate. Isn't it simple.

Government asked the public for indication of whether in or out
The voting public were basically 50:50
Government hence didn't get a clear steer from the voting public
Government/Parliament/Civil Service/experts etc need to decide what is best
Appears over last 2 years there isn't a clear agreement/way forward/know what is best
Stop
People can vote at next general election

Can we get on with running the country :)
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Re: What I'm watching on tv today.

Postby The Old TomCat » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:26 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
You think 51.8% of the public voted for Brexit.

Yes/No

Tom Cat, I see you’ve been posting but you appear to have missed this.

Could you answer?[/quote]

The official Electoral Commission for Referendum states:

Remain: 16,141,241 [48%]
Leave: 17, 410,742 [51%]
Majority to Leave: 1,269,501

Total electorate: 46,500,001
Turnout; 72.2%
Rejected ballots: 25,359

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... nformation

In 2015 turnout for General Election was 66.1% [Before Referendum]
In 2017 turnout for General Election was 68.7%. [After Referendum]

Turnout for 2014 European Election in UK: 36%
Turnout for 2014 European Election within EU: 43.09%

The figures confirm that the Referendum had largest number of those who chose to cast their vote this century in any national/EU election.

BTW. Stroud constituency [which includes Forest Green] voted Remain in Referendum:
Leave 45.4% [33,618] and Remain 54.6% [40,446]
But note both MP for Stroud and the PM who both heavily campaigned for Remain were no longer in Parliament within 18 months.
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