Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:37 am

Eco-Exile wrote:I am calling out for democracy.

In 2017 80% of the UK voters in the General Election voted for parties who in their manifestos committed to securing a deal with the EU and maintaining free trade with them.

Now a government which was elected by 160,000 Conservative members (less than 1% of the U.K. electorate) is trying to force through No Deal, which no one voted for. Democracy would be to have another election or referendum so people can say whether they want this unelected government to deliver No Deal or not.

Plus, their are people now 18 or 19 going to university who have the real threat of seeing the Erasmus scheme no longer being accessible removing their chances of studying abroad. Their parents may have voted Leave and voted Conservative in 2017 but in both votes they were told not to worry about things like Erasmus as they would continue with the deal we would agree. Now we have a government looking for a No Deal I believe it is democratic for these parents and their now voting age children to say “hey, in two different votes you said nothing like this would change and now you are determined to change it with no mandate, we demand another general election or vote to tell you not to do it”.

And an unelected Prime Minister threatening to ignore or close an elected sovereign parliament (who are trying to back control) is not democratic in the slightest.


Where your argument falls flat is that the Referendum was not party political.
It was a straight Remain or Out question and 51.89% voted Out in a turnout of 72%, the greatest since 1992.
Both main political parties accepted that decision of the British people.

Where you are probably getting mixed up is that there are more than two options [or political parties] in General Elections.

BTW it matters not a jot that any Prime Minter has to be elected to that office in a General Election.
It is the winning party in General Elections who select their own leader who then becomes PM.
The Tories won the majority vote at last GE and are therefore entitled to choose their own leader and PM.
Check my earlier post of yesterday for other examples.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:07 am

The only thing worse being frightened and bullied by posters is being ignored by them when I call it out. Two or three posts now I have made about this in response to Old Tom Cat and he has not acknowledged or responded to any.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:27 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
dursleydog wrote:It is really very strange how those who claim to care so deeply about democracy are so willing to turn a completely blind eye to the large scale electoral fraud committed by the Leave campaign in the referendum, so ready to accept the ludicrous way in which Boris Johnson was chosen as PM by 0.2% of the country’s population, and are so scared of asking the British people if they’ve changed their minds!

After all, wouldn’t it be undemocratic to force through such a major change when there is significant evidence that there has been enough of a change of heart to swing it the other way? Especially when the first result was so narrow, so ill informed on all sides, and illegally obtained?

Brexiteers, I’d genuinely love to hear why you think everything I’ve just described is fine in your eyes, because so far the only common thread I’ve seen running through this is if brexiteers get what they want, it’s fine. If they don’t, it’s undemocratic. And I’m afraid playing with the foundations of our democracy in this callous way comes across as a very Trumpian style of politics.

Btw OTC please stop responding to specific questions dealing with genuine problems regarding brexit with “We have FAITH” or similar jingoistic empty words. This isn’t a Baptist church talking about togetherness, this is a political debate talking about serious issues that will effect people’s lives in a genuinely major way. If Brexit sends the UK down the route I think it’s going down, I’m leaving this country that I used to love, and that’s heartbreaking. And that’s such a minor struggle compared with the medicine shortages inflicted upon those dependent on them for life itself, food prices rocketing for those on the breadline, EU Nationals whose right to work and live in the country that they love may be stripped from them overnight. So when people ask these very very real questions of your dream, in the reasonable opinion that is has turned into a nightmare, do them the respect of giving a proper answer.


The judiciary and Parliament have deemed the Referendum vote is valid and stands.
That is all that matters.


You ignored about 90% of what I asked, then the 10% you answered you got hopelessly and wilfully wrong.

The Electoral Commission found both the Vote Leave and LeaveEU Campaigns guilty of electoral fraud and fined them to the maximum extent of their ability. They passed their findings onto the police service and parliament. The police decided to not act on the findings because it was “too politically sensitive”, which reeks of at best an over-politicisation of our police service and at worst full blown corruption. Parliament ignored it because many politicians were either knee deep in it or feel they stand a better chance of keeping their job if they turn a blind eye to it.

It is the job of the electoral commission to investigate electoral fraud, they found both the official and largest unofficial leave campaigns guilty of widespread electoral fraud. They were then completely and utterly ignored, that is a travesty to anyone who gives a damn about our democracy.
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Re: Brexit

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:00 am

dursleydog wrote:

You ignored about 90% of what I asked, then the 10% you answered you got hopelessly and wilfully wrong.

The Electoral Commission found both the Vote Leave and LeaveEU Campaigns guilty of electoral fraud and fined them to the maximum extent of their ability. They passed their findings onto the police service and parliament. The police decided to not act on the findings because it was “too politically sensitive”, which reeks of at best an over-politicisation of our police service and at worst full blown corruption. Parliament ignored it because many politicians were either knee deep in it or feel they stand a better chance of keeping their job if they turn a blind eye to it.

It is the job of the electoral commission to investigate electoral fraud, they found both the official and largest unofficial leave campaigns guilty of widespread electoral fraud. They were then completely and utterly ignored, that is a travesty to anyone who gives a damn about our democracy.


I repeat:
The judiciary and Parliament have deemed the Referendum vote is valid and stands.
That is all that matters.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:18 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
dursleydog wrote:

You ignored about 90% of what I asked, then the 10% you answered you got hopelessly and wilfully wrong.

The Electoral Commission found both the Vote Leave and LeaveEU Campaigns guilty of electoral fraud and fined them to the maximum extent of their ability. They passed their findings onto the police service and parliament. The police decided to not act on the findings because it was “too politically sensitive”, which reeks of at best an over-politicisation of our police service and at worst full blown corruption. Parliament ignored it because many politicians were either knee deep in it or feel they stand a better chance of keeping their job if they turn a blind eye to it.

It is the job of the electoral commission to investigate electoral fraud, they found both the official and largest unofficial leave campaigns guilty of widespread electoral fraud. They were then completely and utterly ignored, that is a travesty to anyone who gives a damn about our democracy.


I repeat:
The judiciary and Parliament have deemed the Referendum vote is valid and stands.
That is all that matters.


Remember what I said about showing questions the minimum of respect with your answers? Yeah.
Last edited by dursleydog on Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:34 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
dursleydog wrote:

You ignored about 90% of what I asked, then the 10% you answered you got hopelessly and wilfully wrong.

The Electoral Commission found both the Vote Leave and LeaveEU Campaigns guilty of electoral fraud and fined them to the maximum extent of their ability. They passed their findings onto the police service and parliament. The police decided to not act on the findings because it was “too politically sensitive”, which reeks of at best an over-politicisation of our police service and at worst full blown corruption. Parliament ignored it because many politicians were either knee deep in it or feel they stand a better chance of keeping their job if they turn a blind eye to it.

It is the job of the electoral commission to investigate electoral fraud, they found both the official and largest unofficial leave campaigns guilty of widespread electoral fraud. They were then completely and utterly ignored, that is a travesty to anyone who gives a damn about our democracy.


I repeat:
The judiciary and Parliament have deemed the Referendum vote is valid and stands.
That is all that matters.


So if the judiciary and Parliament block No Deal You will agree that is valid and all that matters?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:54 am

The Old TomCat wrote:
dursleydog wrote:

You ignored about 90% of what I asked, then the 10% you answered you got hopelessly and wilfully wrong.

The Electoral Commission found both the Vote Leave and LeaveEU Campaigns guilty of electoral fraud and fined them to the maximum extent of their ability. They passed their findings onto the police service and parliament. The police decided to not act on the findings because it was “too politically sensitive”, which reeks of at best an over-politicisation of our police service and at worst full blown corruption. Parliament ignored it because many politicians were either knee deep in it or feel they stand a better chance of keeping their job if they turn a blind eye to it.

It is the job of the electoral commission to investigate electoral fraud, they found both the official and largest unofficial leave campaigns guilty of widespread electoral fraud. They were then completely and utterly ignored, that is a travesty to anyone who gives a damn about our democracy.


I repeat:
The judiciary and Parliament have deemed the Referendum vote is valid and stands.
That is all that matters.


There's an awful lot more that matters.

Surely you know that?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:39 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:The only thing worse being frightened and bullied by posters is being ignored by them when I call it out. Two or three posts now I have made about this in response to Old Tom Cat and he has not acknowledged or responded to any.


I feel you are going too far with your reactions to this. Anyone that knows OTC will agree he is neither threatening nor a bully. He has different opinions to you on this subject, that is all.

The comment about not feeling safe attending an FGR match is absurd, if you genuinely feel too frightened to come to FGR games I'm surprised you go out at all.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:39 pm

Kentstripe wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:The only thing worse being frightened and bullied by posters is being ignored by them when I call it out. Two or three posts now I have made about this in response to Old Tom Cat and he has not acknowledged or responded to any.


I feel you are going too far with your reactions to this. Anyone that knows OTC will agree he is neither threatening nor a bully. He has different opinions to you on this subject, that is all.

The comment about not feeling safe attending an FGR match is absurd, if you genuinely feel too frightened to come to FGR games I'm surprised you go out at all.


I never have felt scared at FGR before.

Did you see my link a few posts ago about xenophobic and anti-EU bullying at schools? Then Old Tom Cat posts on here gleefully praising the politicians who encourage and thrive from such xenophobia.

As I said, it is likely my sibling and niece and nephew will be going to live abroad - and nothing he has written here suggests Old Tom Cat wouldn’t be the type to goad and gloat and wave cheerio as they leave. There is such a climate of intolerance and those who are victim of it are increasingly being mocked or told they are overreacting, or being told that they are intolerant for calling out racism and discrimination, or that this is how it is and they can either be victims of abuse or leave the country if they don’t like it.

I never thought such an atmosphere would be associated with FGR but it is manifesting on this discussion thread.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:07 pm

You don't have to answer this if it's too private, but given you brought it up here, are some of your family going abroad specifically due to experiencing bullying or racism?

I live and work in an area which is very much pro-Brexit, but at the same time is the gateway to Europe and has a large amount of foreign workers, partcularly from Eastern Europe. I would say that although there are tensions at times and like everywhere there are some particularly nasty individuals arouhd , in general people are decent to each other within the community. Things are never going to be perfect, but I would never let myself be driven away due to the presence of a few idiots. If a lot of people do that, then the minority of racists have won. And then this country really will be in trouble. I would stress again however, that from my experience the vast amount of people in this country are extremely decent and tolerant, it is by no means a bad place to live. There is no reason it can't stay that way post-Brexit, it just needs everyone from both sides to find some middle ground and work together.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:53 pm

Yes, they have experienced it directly and indirectly.

I have one black colleague in my office at work. She rarely has need to go on site visits but she did recently and people in a passing car shouted racist abuse at her.

Even if one only experiences racism/xenophobia personally once or twice it is the sheer volume of stories from others you know, online abuse, graffiti and newspaper columns, Piers Morgan and Katie Hopkins getting airtime, people campaigning on behalf of Tommy Robinson, politicians openly goading and abusing minorities and being praised on football forums which wears you down.

Take Trump. As a man perhaps you think the “send her back” chanting and tweeting was awful but nothing more. For me however when you see people in the U.K. supporting him and defending him online, and you see people like Old Tom Cat lauding Johnson as the greatest of all time when he is one of Trump’s biggest chums it means I have to go outside a little more on edge and feeling resigned to knowing it won’t be long til similar chants and campaigns target people in the U.K.

Only this morning we see a leading journalist and politician joking repeatedly about domestic violence on a flagship news programme. This wouldn’t have happened pre-2015 but now that Trump, Farage, Johnson can apparently get away with whatever they want and have people on football forums praising them then of course news readers and politicians feel free to joke about domestic violence. Hundreds of women will be abused on Twitter by trolls for speaking out about this, and a few will be in genuine fear this evening. But no, we mustn’t over react or criticise Old Tom Cat for supporting the people doing this.

(https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/da ... try_recirc)
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Re: Brexit

Postby TreeHugger » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:29 pm

Kentstripe wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:The only thing worse being frightened and bullied by posters is being ignored by them when I call it out. Two or three posts now I have made about this in response to Old Tom Cat and he has not acknowledged or responded to any.


I feel you are going too far with your reactions to this. Anyone that knows OTC will agree he is neither threatening nor a bully. He has different opinions to you on this subject, that is all.

The comment about not feeling safe attending an FGR match is absurd, if you genuinely feel too frightened to come to FGR games I'm surprised you go out at all.


I’m not sure that it’s really fair to dismiss someone’s fears just because you don’t think they’re justified. Of course FGR is a relatively progressive club, but there are still elements of prejudice. I’ve certainly heard homophobic comments on a match day, and there are clearly people on this forum who are prepared to defend the racist comments of others even if they may not utter them themselves in public. A hidden undercurrent can sometimes feel more threatening than obvious prejudice. It’s indicative of a pent up hatred - something which can release itself explosively, as we’ve seen more often following the Brexit vote.

I think it’s something that should be nipped in the bud at FGR. Particularly since the club prides itself on its family-friendly ethos. The first stage of curtailing it is for the fans to stop tolerating it. I’m surprised that only 5 or 6 posters have actually condemned what’s been endorsed on here to be honest, but I thank the ones that have.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Tomiswalking » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:15 pm

Kentstripe wrote:There is no reason it can't stay that way post-Brexit, it just needs everyone from both sides to find some middle ground and work together.


What is the middle ground between?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:43 am

Tomiswalking wrote:
Kentstripe wrote:There is no reason it can't stay that way post-Brexit, it just needs everyone from both sides to find some middle ground and work together.


What is the middle ground between?


I think Kent Stripe is talking about Leave and Remain.

I am talking purely about rising racism and intolerance: I am not sure we should be advocating middle ground between no-racism/discrimination and racism/discrimination......what is Kent Stripe suggesting? Death and rape threats sent online to women journalists endorsed but only on Wednesdays? Synagogues and mosques can only be vandalised on certain days? Etc etc.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Kentstripe » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 am

First you rightly point out I was referring to leave and remain. Which makes sense on a Brexit thread I would think. Both sides need to work together both now and post-Brexit, as it is the only way things will move forward. Constant bickering does nothing.

But then you go on to speculate/twist my words in a quite frankly, disgusting way. I have in no way suggested any of those things and would never condone them.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:09 am

Kentstripe wrote:First you rightly point out I was referring to leave and remain. Which makes sense on a Brexit thread I would think. Both sides need to work together both now and post-Brexit, as it is the only way things will move forward. Constant bickering does nothing.

But then you go on to speculate/twist my words in a quite frankly, disgusting way. I have in no way suggested any of those things and would never condone them.


Apologies. From my perspective a Brexit middle ground would not be a No Deal and not ending Erasmus, allowing U.K. businesses and universities to work on European projects, enabling you and me to travel to and from EU countries as we do now without having to have a visa or queue up with non-EU members, and not encouraging Scotland to go independent or London to become even more of a city state separate from most of the county.

Unfortunately those now in control of Brexit say we will leave “do or die” and “at all costs” - so no middle ground in the slightest. And if one argues for a middle ground then the likes of Old Tom Cat say you are anti-democratic and a traitor.

I don’t buy all of the project fear 2.0 warnings but there will obviously be disruption from No Deal. So if we see a family where one parent loses their job, the other has to ration their insulin and the child has their planned year studying abroad during university cancelled what middle ground should we offer them to look forward to?
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Re: Brexit

Postby dursleydog » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:31 am

Eco-Exile wrote:
Kentstripe wrote:First you rightly point out I was referring to leave and remain. Which makes sense on a Brexit thread I would think. Both sides need to work together both now and post-Brexit, as it is the only way things will move forward. Constant bickering does nothing.

But then you go on to speculate/twist my words in a quite frankly, disgusting way. I have in no way suggested any of those things and would never condone them.


Apologies. From my perspective a Brexit middle ground would not be a No Deal and not ending Erasmus, allowing U.K. businesses and universities to work on European projects, enabling you and me to travel to and from EU countries as we do now without having to have a visa or queue up with non-EU members, and not encouraging Scotland to go independent or London to become even more of a city state separate from most of the county.

Unfortunately those now in control of Brexit say we will leave “do or die” and “at all costs” - so no middle ground in the slightest. And if one argues for a middle ground then the likes of Old Tom Cat say you are anti-democratic and a traitor.

I don’t buy all of the project fear 2.0 warnings but there will obviously be disruption from No Deal. So if we see a family where one parent loses their job, the other has to ration their insulin and the child has their planned year studying abroad during university cancelled what middle ground should we offer them to look forward to?


I agree that the compromise here needs to be some sort of Brexit deal that allows some degree of freedom of movement and goods to remain (for the sake of Northern Ireland more than anything). This could take the form of single market membership, or some sort of customers union.

Sadly, the majority of brexiteers seem hell bent on ending any form of freedom of movement and simply do not care about the consequences for the Good Friday agreement. There also seems to be a significant amount of wilful misunderstanding/fake news as to what “leaving the EU” means, the amount of times I’ve heard a suggestion of a customs union shot down as ‘but then we won’t have left/doesn’t respect the referendum result’ is frankly scary.

As for the remain side of things, I genuinely think the vast majority of remainders would’ve been fine with some sort of Brexit deal that catered for the Northern Ireland problem (Mays deal categorically didn’t) in the early days of this mess. However, the frankly extremist behaviour of so many brexiteers in the forefront of politics has pushed the remain side into thinking no compromise can ever be achieved and the whole cycle becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
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Re: Brexit

Postby Greeners » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:46 am

Hi
The Irish want free movement of their goods and people into NI and thence to the mainland so it is up to them to ensure that nothing and nobody from the rest of the european mainland or the wider world takes advantage of an open border between them and NI.
If they want to send/recieve goods and people to and from mainland europe they can use their own ports, that would take a lot of the foreign traffic, which currently just passes between the Channel/North Sea ports and the West Cost ports, off our roads.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Eco-Exile » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:43 pm

Greeners wrote:Hi
The Irish want free movement of their goods and people into NI and thence to the mainland so it is up to them to ensure that nothing and nobody from the rest of the european mainland or the wider world takes advantage of an open border between them and NI.
If they want to send/recieve goods and people to and from mainland europe they can use their own ports, that would take a lot of the foreign traffic, which currently just passes between the Channel/North Sea ports and the West Cost ports, off our roads.


You almost sound like you think a border would be a good thing. Have you no concern for the Good Friday Agreement and the threat a border would create in terms of a return to violence and division?

Also notwithstanding the fact that NI was hugely Remain and that in the General Election the parties in favour of a united Ireland won the bigger share of the popular vote.

Sending border communities and border towns like Londonderry under the bus for the sake of ensuring No Deal will be such a shame if allowed to happen.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Greeners » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:06 pm

Hi
I didn't argue for border posts on our part.

The irish are quite capable of forcing all goods and people travelling between Ireland and mainland europe go direct from their own ports and airports, and we are quite capable of not allowing goods and people travelling to ireland from mainland europe by stopping them at our ports and airports.
Anything/anyone trying to traverse the UK would not be complying with that and would thus be would be illegitimate movements.
There is nothing there that requires a hard border.
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