Brexit

[Eco-Exile]

What's the latest take today OTC? For us uninformed citizens.

I noticed a complete break from your normal regular posts after Foggy recounted a few observations recently.

Please do not goad the racist. It is a nicer environment without him in this discussion.

[michael]

whilst i am polar opposite to OTC's position on this, i still welcome his input /thoughts on the matter .

-mainly it helps reinforece my own opinion, but would the debate be less interesting if it was simply made up of us remainers.

unfortunately, i think there are quite a few in the country who are in the same camp as OTC ,and seemed to be attracted by the Johnson macho campaign-i was really worried about that a couple of weeks ago, but i think a fair number of Boris supporters are beginning to see through his lies and that he is an ingrained mysoginist.

can we somehow still get that 2nd referendum ?

[dursleydog]

whilst i am polar opposite to OTC's position on this, i still welcome his input /thoughts on the matter .

-mainly it helps reinforece my own opinion, but would the debate be less interesting if it was simply made up of us remainers.

unfortunately, i think there are quite a few in the country who are in the same camp as OTC ,and seemed to be attracted by the Johnson macho campaign-i was really worried about that a couple of weeks ago, but i think a fair number of Boris supporters are beginning to see through his lies and that he is an ingrained mysoginist.

can we somehow still get that 2nd referendum ?

I definitely want to hear opinions from Leave voters, but opinions grounded in factual reality would aid the debate far more. There’s been a bit too much cognitive dissonance going on for a proper debate to really get going unfortunately. It’s all a bit PMQs, with the focus being on saving face, no compromise at any cost, and reverting to attack lines rather than listen to what’s being said.

We get the politicians we deserve after all.

[The Old TomCat]

What's the latest take today OTC? For us uninformed citizens.

I noticed a complete break from your normal regular posts after Foggy recounted a few observations recently.

Please do not goad the racist. It is a nicer environment without him in this discussion.

These two disgraceful posts are self evident why I'm not getting as involved as previously.

I have not moved an inch from wanting UK out of the EU, which I know will be for the long term benefit of this country.
Opinion polls also state that there has been little shift in peoples opinions since Referendum. Perhaps that is why the opposition parties who are opposed to Brexit are frit rigid of a GE. They know Boris is set course to win whatever the date and take UK out of the EU.

[Kentstripe]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

[dursleydog]

Opinion polls also state that there has been little shift in peoples opinions since Referendum. Perhaps that is why the opposition parties who are opposed to Brexit are frit rigid of a GE. They know Boris is set course to win whatever the date and take UK out of the EU.

Like I was saying about the cognitive dissonance. “Opposition are scared of the general election because Leave supporting parties would clearly win”
Why so scared of a 2nd referendum then? Would provide a million times more clarity than a general election likely to return another hung parliament, especially if we learnt from the mistakes of the 1st one and made the result legally binding.

For what it’s worth OTC, I don’t think anything you’ve personally said is racist, but I can see why your impassioned defence of someone who is racist would make others feel quite uncomfortable, especially those who have been on the receiving end of such behaviour in the past. Condoning racist behaviour is what enables it to spread after all.

[The Old TomCat]

Like I was saying about the cognitive dissonance. “Opposition are scared of the general election because Leave supporting parties would clearly win”
Why so scared of a 2nd referendum then? Would provide a million times more clarity than a general election likely to return another hung parliament, especially if we learnt from the mistakes of the 1st one and made the result legally binding.

We were all told that there would only be one referendum.
It takes months to organise a referendum while the country's businesses waits on hold for result. Businesses are already baulking at the 6 month month delay from May when UK was originally set to leave the EU. They have had to stockpile during that period = less money to invest.
A GE should be more than one issue, but next GE [almost certain before Xmas] is certainly going to be overwhelmingly Brexit.
Result will determine which direction UK takes in connection with the EU.
There is no need for another referendum when a GE will offer same result.

[Eco-Exile]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

I am not calling him racist because of Brexit. I am calling him racist as he gleefullly supports racist politicians and when questioned about the racist comments made by these politicians either ignores the questions or dismisses the fears of those on the receiving end of racism in society.

[Fartvs Antiqvvs]

Almost 100% of the population of this country are happy with the rule of democracy and to live here in the UK and are satisfied to be able to contribute to the system by majority rule when electing a new Government.

In 2016 the democratic system was handed to these same people to choose 'in' or 'out', with the result being 'OUT'! The majority of the remainers appear to have pitched democracy out of the window, as it doesn't suit their vote and demand a 2nd try until it suits their case.

[dursleydog]

Like I was saying about the cognitive dissonance. “Opposition are scared of the general election because Leave supporting parties would clearly win”
Why so scared of a 2nd referendum then? Would provide a million times more clarity than a general election likely to return another hung parliament, especially if we learnt from the mistakes of the 1st one and made the result legally binding.

We were all told that there would only be one referendum.
It takes months to organise a referendum while the country's businesses waits on hold for result. Businesses are already baulking at the 6 month month delay from May when UK was originally set to leave the EU. They have had to stockpile during that period = less money to invest.
A GE should be more than one issue, but next GE [almost certain before Xmas] is certainly going to be overwhelmingly Brexit.
Result will determine which direction UK takes in connection with the EU.
There is no need for another referendum when a GE will offer same result.

We were all told a Brexit deal would be the easiest trade deal in history, we were all told of sunlit uplands, we were all told by May there was no chance a snap election would be called, then we were all told said snap election would increase her majority and make Brexit easier, we’ve all been told plenty of lies over the last few years, hence id advocate a legally binding vote that takes the matter out of politicians hands and lets the people decide between a feasible and nailed down Leave option and just remaining. It’s very easy to demean remainers by claiming “you only want a 2nd vote cos you lost”, but it’s a deliberate oversimplification. I want a 2nd vote because the 1st one was run so terribly and has thrown us into this mess, and I believe a 2nd vote is the only way out of said mess, whether that’s by remaining OR leaving!

Businesses don’t especially want more delay, but they’d take it over crashing out without a deal in a heartbeat. A no deal brexit is the very definition of business uncertainty, with years and years of trade negotiations from the weakest possible position to come before any kind of solid trading platform is established. The effect of a no deal on business is outlined in yellowhammer and talked about at length, it’s no coincidence that every time a step towards no deal is made, the pound instantly crashes.

A GE based purely on brexit brings all the vitriol of any public vote in the current atmosphere, but without any of the clarity. We should’ve learnt that lesson from Mays attempt already. It’s still better than no public say, but it’s not even close to being the solution. Judging by all opinion polling, both on GE and 2nd referendum, it’s still very marginal either way. A GE will reflect that just as the makeup of our current parliament does, and we’ll keep on going round in circles and sinking ever deeper into our Brexit stupor.

[paulK]

We were all told a Brexit deal would be the easiest trade deal in history, we were all told of sunlit uplands, we were all told by May there was no chance a snap election would be called, then we were all told said snap election would increase her majority and make Brexit easier, we’ve all been told plenty of lies over the last few years, hence id advocate a legally binding vote that takes the matter out of politicians hands and lets the people decide between a feasible and nailed down Leave option and just remaining.

Not sure what we were told (always too much rhetoric), but lies or optimistic opinion? OK, I know the old adage, how do you know when a politician is lying, but invariably it is a genuine belief/opinion and/or desire.

Invariably, everything has it's pro's and cons. Sure, some things are predictable, but even then outcomes can surprisingly be not and the proof is always in the eating, as they say.

Is a second referendum going to be any better than the first? Is another general election going to be any better than any other, when it comes to electioneering? I don't see it.

As for the public voting on a feasible & nailed down leave option, surely that is taking things out of the hands of Parliament (which has already taken things out of the hands of the PM).

Besides which, as for a feasible and nailed down option, the Government has not managed to do that in three years. Boris has it right IMO. Let's get out and move on. Nobody can be certain of what the future holds.

[paulK]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

I am not calling him racist because of Brexit. I am calling him racist as he gleefullly supports racist politicians and when questioned about the racist comments made by these politicians either ignores the questions or dismisses the fears of those on the receiving end of racism in society.

And there we have it E/E. Slinging the insult. There are plenty who know OTC who wouldn't agree with you. Your justification doesn't hold up IMO.

+1 for Kenstripe

[TreeHugger]

An insult is only really an insult if it’s a) inaccurate, and b) hurtful.

Labelling someone a ‘racist’ is usually done based on a view drawn from evidence, so can’t really be called inaccurate unless that evidence is missing. Someone who uses racist language, or endorses others’ use of racist language, can understandably expect to have the same label levelled at them as they’ve created that evidence themselves. It’s not really an insult, more of an observation/opinion.

The easiest thing to do is to call out those that use racist language or express unacceptable prejudices. It’s fairly simple to say ‘I support Brexit but disagree with Boris Johnson’s views on ethnic minorities’, as plenty of people have managed to do.

[Eco-Exile]

Almost 100% of the population of this country are happy with the rule of democracy and to live here in the UK and are satisfied to be able to contribute to the system by majority rule when electing a new Government.

In 2016 the democratic system was handed to these same people to choose 'in' or 'out', with the result being 'OUT'! The majority of the remainers appear to have pitched democracy out of the window, as it doesn't suit their vote and demand a 2nd try until it suits their case.

What could be more democratic than giving people a further chance in saying how they would like Brexit to be delivered. Some Leave voters are against No Deal. Some are against any deal. Some may no longer want Brexit it all, and some Remain voters may now want to Leave.

Johnson says the Backstop is ‘undemocratic’ - why not prove that by letting people vote on the deal.

Personally I think referendums are fundamentally undemocratic because those who have to live longest with the result are those who were too young to vote - a huge democratic deficit. This is why General Elections are held every five years so democracy is renewed as new citizens become eligible to vote and the whole electorate can respond to new issues and challenges facing the country.

Imagine being 17 in 2016 with plans to freely travel and study across Europe and now being told you are anti-democratic to ever want a say on that issue, even if thousands of people who voted to scupper your plans have died already.

Given it is such a fundamental issue facing the future of this country, letting the whole electorate rather than 160,000 Tory members have a say on the Brexit deal seems absolutely crucial to me.

[Tomiswalking]

I think defending racism is probably worse than saying racist things. No wonder the powerful get away with crime.

As for brexit. I'm on Dale's team now. Bj Gove farage Rees mog have failed to offer any plan, and when I listen to who they are, the type of change they want as individuals is not progressive in my opinion. They are not my kind of people, and I would rather not be assosiated with any of them. I would have liked to move forward for the good of normal working people, like myself, and look after the environment we share. But this is not what the conservative want.

[Eco-Exile]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

I am not calling him racist because of Brexit. I am calling him racist as he gleefullly supports racist politicians and when questioned about the racist comments made by these politicians either ignores the questions or dismisses the fears of those on the receiving end of racism in society.

And there we have it E/E. Slinging the insult. There are plenty who know OTC who wouldn't agree with you. Your justification doesn't hold up IMO.

+1 for Kenstripe

Paul, surely you have seen on this thread that he has praised Boris Johnson and defended him against any criticism. So in what sense does my justification not hold up?

[Eco-Exile]

An insult is only really an insult if it’s a) inaccurate, and b) hurtful.

Labelling someone a ‘racist’ is usually done based on a view drawn from evidence, so can’t really be called inaccurate unless that evidence is missing. Someone who uses racist language, or endorses others’ use of racist language, can understandably expect to have the same label levelled at them as they’ve created that evidence themselves. It’s not really an insult, more of an observation/opinion.

The easiest thing to do is to call out those that use racist language or express unacceptable prejudices. It’s fairly simple to say ‘I support Brexit but disagree with Boris Johnson’s views on ethnic minorities’, as plenty of people have managed to do.

It is very simple really. If Old Tom Cat is against racism all he has to do is say something along the lines of that you suggest.

[paulK]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

I am not calling him racist because of Brexit. I am calling him racist as he gleefullly supports racist politicians and when questioned about the racist comments made by these politicians either ignores the questions or dismisses the fears of those on the receiving end of racism in society.

And there we have it E/E. Slinging the insult. There are plenty who know OTC who wouldn't agree with you. Your justification doesn't hold up IMO.

+1 for Kenstripe

Paul, surely you have seen on this thread that he has praised Boris Johnson and defended him against any criticism. So in what sense does my justification not hold up?

As far as I can see he is keeping to the political issue of Brexit. You are the one making a racist issue out of it.

That he doesn't care to engage with you on the subject of racism isn't at all surprising given your approach. Doesn't make him a racist. I would say sensible

[Tomiswalking]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

I am not calling him racist because of Brexit. I am calling him racist as he gleefullly supports racist politicians and when questioned about the racist comments made by these politicians either ignores the questions or dismisses the fears of those on the receiving end of racism in society.

And there we have it E/E. Slinging the insult. There are plenty who know OTC who wouldn't agree with you. Your justification doesn't hold up IMO.

+1 for Kenstripe

Paul, surely you have seen on this thread that he has praised Boris Johnson and defended him against any criticism. So in what sense does my justification not hold up?

As far as I can see he is keeping to the political issue of Brexit. You are the one making a racist issue out of it.

That he doesn't care to engage with you on the subject of racism isn't at all surprising given your approach. Doesn't make him a racist. I would say sensible

There is a link between brexit and racism being made by all the big uk news outlets. So it's very much on topic.

OTC is quite rightly defending lots of brexit voters, understandable they dont want to be assosiated with the racist amongst their group. But will they stand up against it? From this it appears not. As OTC thinks that describing people with water melon smiles is just a case of old fashioned language, and supports bj.

[Eco-Exile]

All I can see in this thread is OTC expressing his political views, which he has every right to do, and then a small group who disagree with him, which they have every right to do, who feel the need to attempt to sling insults in his direction, which is totally out of order and reflects poorly on them more then anything.

There are no racist comments in this thread that I can see. If there were I'm sure the mods will have dealt with them and any poster that made them would be banned, so to make accusations like that are totally wrong imo. Plenty of people have differing opinions on Brexit, including FGR fans, but that doesn't mean people can't be civil.

I am not calling him racist because of Brexit. I am calling him racist as he gleefullly supports racist politicians and when questioned about the racist comments made by these politicians either ignores the questions or dismisses the fears of those on the receiving end of racism in society.

And there we have it E/E. Slinging the insult. There are plenty who know OTC who wouldn't agree with you. Your justification doesn't hold up IMO.

+1 for Kenstripe

Paul, surely you have seen on this thread that he has praised Boris Johnson and defended him against any criticism. So in what sense does my justification not hold up?

As far as I can see he is keeping to the political issue of Brexit. You are the one making a racist issue out of it.

That he doesn't care to engage with you on the subject of racism isn't at all surprising given your approach. Doesn't make him a racist. I would say sensible

Seriously? He has said he supports Boris Johnson. Boris Johnson is a racist. Nothing more to it than that.