Parliament

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Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:19 pm

I've spend most of afternoon watching the Parliament channel and riveting watching it it.
Obviously the opposition parties are having a go at the Tories after the Supreme Court found against them regarding proroguing Parliament .
The Tories are standing firm that they believed their actions at the time were legal!

What is almost unheard of is that the Tories are demanding loud that the country needs a GE while the opposition are stepping back from offering one.
It is almost certain that within next month or so Boris will face a vote of confidence.
With his back to the wall I would not be surprised if Boris forces the issue and brings about a vote of confidence himself to deliberately lose thus bringing down the government and forcing a GE.
The opposition are so divided that they would not be able to form an administration.

Corbyn was very bullish at his party conference yesterday saying that Labour would be the next government.
I don't have his confidence and think perhaps the Lib Dems could run them close as the main future opposition party.
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:03 pm

Gosh, this evening Members of Parliament made the most vociferous football crowd look meekly quiet.
And that was from both sides of the house.
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Game Within » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:14 pm

We should get them in the south stand.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:58 pm

The Game Within wrote:We should get them in the south stand.



+1 :lol: :roll: :lol:

Maybe Dale can give them some complimentary tickets ;)
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:22 pm

Frightening from Boris Johnson. The way he dismissed fearful tearful MPs. The way he joked and goaded when it came to death threats and Jo Cox.

If I was a woman MP in Britain tonight I would feel very unsafe. I do and I am not an MP.

The bullying misogyny from Boris Johnson is unbelievable. And indefensible by any normal or decent people.

Journalists and commentators from both sides of the Left/Right and Remain/Leave divides have rightly condemned the hate-mongering this evening.
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Re: Parliament

Postby michael » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:41 pm

Comment removed by Mod
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Re: Parliament

Postby Bronco » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:39 pm

Mock outrage in overload
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:08 am

michael wrote:Comment removed by Mod


What is it about abuse and death threats sent to women MPs parroting the language first coined by the Prime Minister which you find so amusing and worthy of snide sarcasm?

Multiple MPs begged him to stop using the terms Surrender Bill and traitors as these are two terms most used by those sending abuse and death threats on line - Johnson just dismisses it and carried on. It seems like you are doing the same - do you have a problem with women?

This is nothing about being anti-Conservative or anti-Brexit. Here is the Spectator’s take, written by their assistant editor:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/b ... -as-humbug

You can not get more pro-Conservative or pro-Brexit than the Spectator for example.

A rare occasion when The Spectator and New Statesmen both agree....you know it is a serious and genuine concern when that happens:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... jo-cox-and

So it is nothing to do with Brexit or which Party you support (I am Conservative until this summer) it is whether you are happy for the Prime Minister to use language which contributes to (note: contributes to, not causes) the online hate sent to women MPs, or do you also think misogynistic abuse is something to dismiss and laugh off?

And it is no surprise that Domestic Violence Bill which was due to be voted on in the Commons before the prorogation isn’t making a re-appearance. The only items on the agenda today in the Commons is a vote on whether to have a recess before the Conservative conference and a general debate about democracy. It would be the perfect time to vote on the Domestic Violence Bill; but then a Prime Minister who dismisses tearful women MPs and laughs off the murder of a woman MP to appeal to a certain segment of the electorate it is no surprise he doesn’t want MPs to pass the Domestic Violence Bill.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Greeners » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:18 am

Hi
michael wrote:Comment removed by Mod

Does the occupation or ethnicity of the person using such language matter?

About 4 mins into this programme that phrase is addressed by the broadcaster.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001vlq
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Re: Parliament

Postby cookiemonster » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:53 am

Greeners wrote:Hi
michael wrote:Comment removed by Mod

Does the occupation or ethnicity of the person using such language matter?

About 4 mins into this programme that phrase is addressed by the broadcaster.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001vlq


Ah, the old 'they use that language about each other so it must be ok for us to use it' argument?
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Re: Parliament

Postby Referee » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:13 am

May I remind all forum members of the rules.

michael, your attempt at humour is nothing of the sort. Please refrain from this kind of posting. To others, please report such behaviour, but don't give it credence by quoting and dissecting it. Thank you.

The thread will be locked if necesary.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:21 am

The Old TomCat wrote:What is almost unheard of is that the Tories are demanding loud that the country needs a GE while the opposition are stepping back from offering one.


A General Election is not the proper way to resolve Brexit. A General Election is a vote about running the country for the next 5 years. Health, Education, Defence, and so on. Most of the woes of this country are nothing to do with the EU and absolutely would not be solved by Brexit.

To try and bully opposition parties into having a General Election about Brexit is a nasty, low tactic. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that Dominic Cummings is trying that course of action.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:03 pm

Tory MP decides to use this analogy to describe the No Deal law passed by Parliament:

“They prevent you murdering your wife, they don’t make you love your wife.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 21281.html
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Re: Parliament

Postby cookiemonster » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:06 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:What is almost unheard of is that the Tories are demanding loud that the country needs a GE while the opposition are stepping back from offering one.


A General Election is not the proper way to resolve Brexit. A General Election is a vote about running the country for the next 5 years. Health, Education, Defence, and so on. Most of the woes of this country are nothing to do with the EU and absolutely would not be solved by Brexit.

To try and bully opposition parties into having a General Election about Brexit is a nasty, low tactic. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that Dominic Cummings is trying that course of action.


To be fair TOF if I were the PM and believed there to be a good majority among the electorate for my flagship policy which was being blocked by a Parliament elected several years prior, then I would likely push for a GE too.

The scary thing is BoJo might be right about the electorate i.e. that following a GE he could form a majority government bent on making us all poorer (and not just financially).
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:27 pm

I think most thought Boris would be contrite at the session yesterday but he was far from it and was actually baiting the opposition parties.
Perversely he is getting more support from the public both in opinion polls and messages to his MPs despite losing on every issue since becoming PM.
The Tories have the scent of the oppositions blood and that was evident when Boris called upon the opposition to have a GE - the Tory ranks supported him to the rafters in a manner never previously seen in the House of Commons.
What was unusual last evening is that throughout there was clapping, hitherto verboten in the House.

The reason for Boris's increase of support is self-evident: the public [both Brexiteers and Remainers] are sick to the back teeth of Brexit and want it done and dusted. People are fed up that Parliament knows what it does NOT want but not what it does want.
Boris has shown leadership trying take the UK out of the EU. The public are prepared to overlook his failings [and Boris has more than one] knowing he has a Brexit end-plan.
For same reason I suspect the LibDems support will significantly increase as a 100% Remain party.

Having another Referendum is a non-starter; that would be a betrayal of the 17.4 million who voted OUT and were told it would be a one-off.
But I accept having a Brexit CE is not really in best long term interest of country. There are many MPs whose constituencies voted OUT or Remain but must tow the party line, whether it conflicts with the MPs own constituents. Many good MPs could therefore be voted out of Parliament which would be sad for the country.
But having a Brexit CE would confirm or refute the Referendum result. It the Tories win, we're out and if the LibDems win, UK remains in the EU. Simple.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:52 pm

And then 5 years of governing the country - what is that decided on?

Out of interest, what are the polls that say Boris's popularity is increasing, I wasn't aware of any that have been taken since the Supreme Court ruling?

As for saying that all people just want Brexit over - that's Leaver twaddle.

Do you ever think of the 16.1m people? Why do their views appear to be of no consequence to you?
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Re: Parliament

Postby michael » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:55 pm

I can only speak for myself, but i do not want it done and dusted .

unfortunately the tactic of putting the people against parliament and grinding many of the public into 'submission' -and we just don't care now -seems to be having some success .

whilst i seek a second referendum based on fact and truth , can you trust the british public who voted for boaty mcboatface and jedward to vote on anything ?


unfortunately whilst i anticipate that ultimately the country will sadly leave the EU with a deal based on T Mays deal ,do people realise that even so, there are at least another 2 years of this whilst the detail of the detail of the deal is sorted/negotiated ,argued and debated ,and that any deal is an interim deal to be worked on until final and conclusive leave date proposed for 2021.
Can't we just stay in .
Last edited by michael on Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:00 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:I think most thought Boris would be contrite at the session yesterday but he was far from it and was actually baiting the opposition parties.
Perversely he is getting more support from the public both in opinion polls and messages to his MPs despite losing on every issue since becoming PM.
The Tories have the scent of the oppositions blood and that was evident when Boris called upon the opposition to have a GE - the Tory ranks supported him to the rafters in a manner never previously seen in the House of Commons.
What was unusual last evening is that throughout there was clapping, hitherto verboten in the House.

The reason for Boris's increase of support is self-evident: the public [both Brexiteers and Remainers] are sick to the back teeth of Brexit and want it done and dusted. People are fed up that Parliament knows what it does NOT want but not what it does want.
Boris has shown leadership trying take the UK out of the EU. The public are prepared to overlook his failings [and Boris has more than one] knowing he has a Brexit end-plan.
For same reason I suspect the LibDems support will significantly increase as a 100% Remain party.

Having another Referendum is a non-starter; that would be a betrayal of the 17.4 million who voted OUT and were told it would be a one-off.
But I accept having a Brexit CE is not really in best long term interest of country. There are many MPs whose constituencies voted OUT or Remain but must tow the party line, whether it conflicts with the MPs own constituents. Many good MPs could therefore be voted out of Parliament which would be sad for the country.
But having a Brexit CE would confirm or refute the Referendum result. It the Tories win, we're out and if the LibDems win, UK remains in the EU. Simple.


Apart from the current Conservatives say they don’t want No Deal, that they want a deal, but haven’t yet proposed a deal.

Johnson voted against leaving the EU three times this year in January and March. Hardly leadership! He told May what he didn’t want in March and six months later still hasn’t said what he does want.

A general election will be another hung parliament. Just more can kicking. The choices after will remain the same as they are now: no deal, deal or revoke.

So, Old Tom Cat if you are so sure the majority want to leave with No Deal why not have another referendum on it? After all, the make up of the electorate has changed. Anyone now aged 18-20 had no vote in 2016 but they will be allowed to vote in the General Election - why not cut to the chase and allow them a vote along with everyone else on whether to leave?
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Re: Parliament

Postby Pitchfork » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:26 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:So, Old Tom Cat if you are so sure the majority want to leave with No Deal why not have another referendum on it? After all, the make up of the electorate has changed. Anyone now aged 18-20 had no vote in 2016 but they will be allowed to vote in the General Election - why not cut to the chase and allow them a vote along with everyone else on whether to leave?


Nobody born this century has been able to vote about Brexit: the vast majority of them will be alive in 2100, as long as we continue to strive to sort out climate change.

A second referendum giving everyone the opportunity to vote on the proposed deal ( if one ever gets agreed) is the right way forward in my opinion.

By the way my credentials are:

.I was against joining the 'Common Market' in my youth and was a member of the organisation that canvassed not to join. In hindsight I see my views were very influenced by my biased education which had convinced me we could exist and prosper alone.

. Although the EU has its problems I believed we are far better inside than contemplating leaving. I was firmly remain in the referendum.

. If a second vote comes to pass, I will look at the terms of the proposed deal, listen to the arguments on both sides and then make a decision.

Although I am still 'remain' we have to find some middle ground, or this country will be divided for years to come.

I'm not sure a general election would solve anything
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:30 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:So, Old Tom Cat if you are so sure the majority want to leave with No Deal why not have another referendum on it? After all, the make up of the electorate has changed. Anyone now aged 18-20 had no vote in 2016 but they will be allowed to vote in the General Election - why not cut to the chase and allow them a vote along with everyone else on whether to leave?

Already answered all your points:
# Referendum was a one-off
# Voters may or may not want No Deal but they want the Brexit debacle ended.

ps to Pitchfork
# A GE will bring to end the Brexit debate, one way or another. That is why country desperately needs a GE.
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