Parliament

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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:04 am

OK. It's not relevant to the thread, in detail, but, if it is true, and it seems to be...

This is what life is like in the post truth world. Boris is the post truth world.

https://twitter.com/katierogers/status/ ... 8853751809
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:31 am

Louise Ellman MP has just stood down from the Labour Party after 55 years saying she cannot longer remain in an anti-Jewish racist party that Labour has become.
The Jewish MP said Mr Corbyn has 'presided over a culture of hatred, fear and intolerance.' She added that under his leadership, anti-Semitism had become 'main-stream in the Labour Party.'

And it is these same Corbanists who have the brass balls to claim that Boris is racist.
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:05 am

Labour are really in the middle of a quandary:
they are 15% points off the Tories in latest opinion polls and their own MP’s are telling the party they are not ready for a General Election despite being told by Parliamentary Party chairman Ian Lavery that the party was ‘chomping at the bit for one’.

Corbyn has been demanding an election for years but of late realised it is not a good idea for his party.
It seems this zombie parliament must continue.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Silver Surfer » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:20 am

The Old TomCat wrote:Labour are really in the middle of a quandary:
they are 15% points off the Tories in latest opinion polls and their own MP’s are telling the party they are not ready for a General Election despite being told by Parliamentary Party chairman Ian Lavery that the party was ‘chomping at the bit for one’.

Corbyn has been demanding an election for years but of late realised it is not a good idea for his party.
It seems this zombie parliament must continue.


So will you be voting Green?
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:13 pm

dursleydog wrote:
paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
redrobin wrote:a man far wiser than moi once said...
No lie can live for ever,,

Now the truth is out in the open lets have a proper vote and put this to bed , one way or the other
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would only vote only way !!!!!


Yes but you're talking about the British public ;)

A headline I saw recently said although people don't like being lied to and are understandably angry when they find out the facts have little effect on the way we vote. It is said that people vote based on emotion; logics and truths are simply ways to justify and I can quite see the rationale behind that.

This post-truth political culture has made it even easier for politicians to persuade, after all many of these truths will only become truths if and when they actually happen.

Did those trying to persuade us to get into the Common market tell me that signing up to a trading deal would lead us to losing our national control in other areas. Of course not. But I saw it coming. Brexit seems to be an outcome of that,


Genuine question as it will help me understand your thoughts more - what areas of control have we lost and what impact has it made for your life?

My worry is now we will lose our freedoms like the freedom to travel to visit friends and family around Europe. I am a proud British citizen but outside of the area I live in I have more friends in places like Paris, Antwerp and Stockholm than in the UK and it is cheaper and easier to visit each other than it is for me to travel to elsewhere in the UK.

If I must give up freedoms to visit these friends like I do now then I would like to know what freedoms we get back and how that will benefit me. So please let me know which freedoms you think we will get back are the most important.


For me, it is not about personal freedoms and benefits. My reasonings are based on other factors.

The main one is having to agree with European Law even if we don't want to. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said for European Law. We could and I'm sure would adopt by following where we saw best practice. I guess the bottom line is I don't see we should be told what to do by the EU when we don't want to.

The other thing is that we are in the top 3 (maybe 2nd?), biggest of only 9(?) net contributors to the EU. The last figure I saw was around 14%.

It is easy to challenge me with, but shouldn't we be caring about the wider picture and help others out but, conversely, if you help them out they have much less incentive to solve the issues in their country. We have enough problems of our own that could be addressed with money paid in to the EU.

I'm not sure Brexit will limit your freedoms, will it? How do you think it will limit your freedom to travel? In all honesty I think E/R are more likely to limit your freedoms than Brexit ;)

That's not saying we shouldn't be doing things to solve the environment problem, by the way.


We do have a veto on important issues in EU law (like Turkey joining the union, as an example plucked from the Vote Leave catalogue of lies). It’s not necessarily a perfect arrangement, but can you name a single law we’ve had to pass in this country against our will? Much of EU law was in fact based upon our own law anyway, a big example being their Human Rights Act, which the previous Tory government spoke about having the opportunity to rip up! Insanity.

The trouble with this economic assessment is it ignores the indirect economic benefit of being part of the EU in its calculations, which only looks at the payments themselves. There’s not really going to be any magical brexit dividend to solve all our problems with. Instead we’re likely to see funds decreasing due to a shrinking economy and staffing shortages in public services worsen as many immigrants who have been plugging the gaps in our workforce for decades either decide or are forced to leave.

Plus, assuming the rich and mighty Britain is bailing out poverty stricken European nations is a bit rich considering many of the most poverty ridden regions within the EU (as determined by the help given to them by the EU Regional Development Fund) are within the UK. I should know, I live in one! (Cornwall). We pay a lot into the EU, we get a lot directly out again. Putting a figure on the indirect benefits is tricky, but it’s pretty clear it’s more than a enough for us to be turning an overall economic profit and there’s plenty of studies out there with estimates. Turning away a group who by every possible measure pay more into our society than they take out as part of this push to lose that economic benefit as well is going to have an enormous negative effect on our general economy, and our public services.

Brexit in this form will limit our freedoms, it takes away our freedom to live and work across Europe, that’s an indisputable fact. I’m sure it won’t effect a holiday to Tenerife much bar an extra form to fill out, but for those of us with aspirations to potentially work and live in Europe at some point in our lives (like me) it’s pretty devastating.


I agree that there are other indirect benefits and indeed I am sure we will be working hard in getting trade agreements to mitigate those elements.

As for help given in the UK by the EU, the figure I was quoting were net contributions and did not include money we are receiving back. The Government has already been talking about internal investment and can use the money we give in but get back.

I agree that certain benefits like automatically being able to work in Europe will be lost. But if you are that keen to go and work abroad etc then you will just need to go through the immigration process of that country. I have relatives who live and work in Germany. That will continue after Brexit.

It is interesting that you consider Britain rich and mighty. Personally, I don't agree.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:18 pm

Silver Surfer wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:Labour are really in the middle of a quandary:
they are 15% points off the Tories in latest opinion polls and their own MP’s are telling the party they are not ready for a General Election despite being told by Parliamentary Party chairman Ian Lavery that the party was ‘chomping at the bit for one’.

Corbyn has been demanding an election for years but of late realised it is not a good idea for his party.
It seems this zombie parliament must continue.


So will you be voting Green?


I have to say, the less risk to the Tories not getting in, the more certainty I will be voting elsewhere and Green is a valid option.
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Re: Parliament

Postby michael » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:23 pm

It is interesting that you consider Britain rich and mighty. Personally, I don't agree.
.


agree that i do not agree either.

so many little islanders think we are important -the UK is not

i think the UK is currently championship at best,and should the UK leave -certainly going to be relegated to EFL1 ,and after a few years floundering, the leavers can congratulate themselves on securing a further relegation to EFL2
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:59 pm

michael wrote:It is interesting that you consider Britain rich and mighty. Personally, I don't agree.
.


agree that i do not agree either.

so many little islanders think we are important -the UK is not

i think the UK is currently championship at best,and should the UK leave -certainly going to be relegated to EFL1 ,and after a few years floundering, the leavers can congratulate themselves on securing a further relegation to EFL2


Of course, there is also the danger we might end up like Bury ;)

Alternatively, it could be that somewhere along the line we get a new manager who saves us. Corbyn anyone :?:
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Re: Parliament

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:16 pm

Silver Surfer wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:Labour are really in the middle of a quandary:
they are 15% points off the Tories in latest opinion polls and their own MP’s are telling the party they are not ready for a General Election despite being told by Parliamentary Party chairman Ian Lavery that the party was ‘chomping at the bit for one’.

Corbyn has been demanding an election for years but of late realised it is not a good idea for his party.
It seems this zombie parliament must continue.


So will you be voting Green?

Oh Good Lord no.
The Green Party makes dysfunctional Labour look almost sensible.
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Re: Parliament

Postby dursleydog » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:07 pm

paulK wrote:
It is interesting that you consider Britain rich and mighty. Personally, I don't agree.


I don’t actually, I was being tongue in cheek.

I think we’re desperately clinging onto this myth of being a superpower, rather than accepting we can be a decent sized economy with a reasonable amount of power as part of something larger than ourselves, and that attitude hurts us at the end of the day. As a country, we’ve got a hell of an ego.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:36 pm

paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
redrobin wrote:a man far wiser than moi once said...
No lie can live for ever,,

Now the truth is out in the open lets have a proper vote and put this to bed , one way or the other
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would only vote only way !!!!!


Yes but you're talking about the British public ;)

A headline I saw recently said although people don't like being lied to and are understandably angry when they find out the facts have little effect on the way we vote. It is said that people vote based on emotion; logics and truths are simply ways to justify and I can quite see the rationale behind that.

This post-truth political culture has made it even easier for politicians to persuade, after all many of these truths will only become truths if and when they actually happen.

Did those trying to persuade us to get into the Common market tell me that signing up to a trading deal would lead us to losing our national control in other areas. Of course not. But I saw it coming. Brexit seems to be an outcome of that,


Genuine question as it will help me understand your thoughts more - what areas of control have we lost and what impact has it made for your life?

My worry is now we will lose our freedoms like the freedom to travel to visit friends and family around Europe. I am a proud British citizen but outside of the area I live in I have more friends in places like Paris, Antwerp and Stockholm than in the UK and it is cheaper and easier to visit each other than it is for me to travel to elsewhere in the UK.

If I must give up freedoms to visit these friends like I do now then I would like to know what freedoms we get back and how that will benefit me. So please let me know which freedoms you think we will get back are the most important.


For me, it is not about personal freedoms and benefits. My reasonings are based on other factors.

The main one is having to agree with European Law even if we don't want to. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said for European Law. We could and I'm sure would adopt by following where we saw best practice. I guess the bottom line is I don't see we should be told what to do by the EU when we don't want to.

The other thing is that we are in the top 3 (maybe 2nd?), biggest of only 9(?) net contributors to the EU. The last figure I saw was around 14%.

It is easy to challenge me with, but shouldn't we be caring about the wider picture and help others out but, conversely, if you help them out they have much less incentive to solve the issues in their country. We have enough problems of our own that could be addressed with money paid in to the EU.

I'm not sure Brexit will limit your freedoms, will it? How do you think it will limit your freedom to travel? In all honesty I think E/R are more likely to limit your freedoms than Brexit ;)

That's not saying we shouldn't be doing things to solve the environment problem, by the way.


Thanks for the explanation although it doesn’t get to the point of what I was asking. Which EU you laws have we had to abide by and how do they impact on you and me?
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:55 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
redrobin wrote:a man far wiser than moi once said...
No lie can live for ever,,

Now the truth is out in the open lets have a proper vote and put this to bed , one way or the other
Anyone with an ounce of common sense would only vote only way !!!!!


Yes but you're talking about the British public ;)

A headline I saw recently said although people don't like being lied to and are understandably angry when they find out the facts have little effect on the way we vote. It is said that people vote based on emotion; logics and truths are simply ways to justify and I can quite see the rationale behind that.

This post-truth political culture has made it even easier for politicians to persuade, after all many of these truths will only become truths if and when they actually happen.

Did those trying to persuade us to get into the Common market tell me that signing up to a trading deal would lead us to losing our national control in other areas. Of course not. But I saw it coming. Brexit seems to be an outcome of that,


Genuine question as it will help me understand your thoughts more - what areas of control have we lost and what impact has it made for your life?

My worry is now we will lose our freedoms like the freedom to travel to visit friends and family around Europe. I am a proud British citizen but outside of the area I live in I have more friends in places like Paris, Antwerp and Stockholm than in the UK and it is cheaper and easier to visit each other than it is for me to travel to elsewhere in the UK.

If I must give up freedoms to visit these friends like I do now then I would like to know what freedoms we get back and how that will benefit me. So please let me know which freedoms you think we will get back are the most important.


For me, it is not about personal freedoms and benefits. My reasonings are based on other factors.

The main one is having to agree with European Law even if we don't want to. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said for European Law. We could and I'm sure would adopt by following where we saw best practice. I guess the bottom line is I don't see we should be told what to do by the EU when we don't want to.

The other thing is that we are in the top 3 (maybe 2nd?), biggest of only 9(?) net contributors to the EU. The last figure I saw was around 14%.

It is easy to challenge me with, but shouldn't we be caring about the wider picture and help others out but, conversely, if you help them out they have much less incentive to solve the issues in their country. We have enough problems of our own that could be addressed with money paid in to the EU.

I'm not sure Brexit will limit your freedoms, will it? How do you think it will limit your freedom to travel? In all honesty I think E/R are more likely to limit your freedoms than Brexit ;)

That's not saying we shouldn't be doing things to solve the environment problem, by the way.


Thanks for the explanation although it doesn’t get to the point of what I was asking. Which EU you laws have we had to abide by and how do they impact on you and me?


We have to abide by all EU laws as far as I'm aware. I'm not really into a discussion on how they affect me and I wouldn't have a clue how they affect you.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:46 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:Louise Ellman MP has just stood down from the Labour Party after 55 years saying she cannot longer remain in an anti-Jewish racist party that Labour has become.
The Jewish MP said Mr Corbyn has 'presided over a culture of hatred, fear and intolerance.' She added that under his leadership, anti-Semitism had become 'main-stream in the Labour Party.'

And it is these same Corbanists who have the brass balls to claim that Boris is racist.


Hey. I am happy to say Corbyn is just as bad as Boris.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Tomiswalking » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:06 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:Louise Ellman MP has just stood down from the Labour Party after 55 years saying she cannot longer remain in an anti-Jewish racist party that Labour has become.
The Jewish MP said Mr Corbyn has 'presided over a culture of hatred, fear and intolerance.' She added that under his leadership, anti-Semitism had become 'main-stream in the Labour Party.'

And it is these same Corbanists who have the brass balls to claim that Boris is racist.
good on her. If more people took a stand against racism, Britain would be better.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Tomiswalking » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:23 pm

Bj got a deal! Does anyone like it?
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Re: Parliament

Postby twoguns » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:31 pm

I'm sure you've all seen the news that BJ has agreed a deal with the EU but within 30 minutes Corbyn, DUP and the libdems rejected it out of hand. It will be interesting to see how this pans out on Saturday when it's put to the vote.

The EU have also given BJ additional support by saying there will be no extension so that blows the Benn Act out of the water.

The options therefor are accept the deal, reject the deal and leave without a deal or revoke article 50.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 pm

twoguns wrote:I'm sure you've all seen the news that BJ has agreed a deal with the EU but within 30 minutes Corbyn, DUP and the libdems rejected it out of hand. It will be interesting to see how this pans out on Saturday when it's put to the vote.

The EU have also given BJ additional support by saying there will be no extension so that blows the Benn Act out of the water.

The options therefor are accept the deal, reject the deal and leave without a deal or revoke article 50.



Par for the course. I find all this posturing rather fascinating. I guess we'll have a better idea by Saturday night.

Can still see a scenario where he might still send that letter.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Tomiswalking » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:13 pm

Whilst finding out about northan Ireland, I cant find much other information about the deal. Anyone help?
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:26 pm

Tomiswalking wrote:Whilst finding out about northan Ireland, I cant find much other information about the deal. Anyone help?


Not sure where you've found what TiW but I found this useful https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50083026

I've seen it described as TM's deal with the backstop arrangement tweaked.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Tomiswalking » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:46 pm

paulK wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:Whilst finding out about northan Ireland, I cant find much other information about the deal. Anyone help?


Not sure where you've found what TiW but I found this useful https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50083026

I've seen it described as TM's deal with the backstop arrangement tweaked.


That's just what I needed. Thanks :D
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