DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate change

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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby NewForestRover » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:34 pm

Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:36 pm

NewForestRover wrote:Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.


Quite right NFR. Keeping the current way of living going is way more important than considering and caring for the survival of ours and many other species.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:38 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries (enveloping Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad ), and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I've been wondering ToC. E/R advocate that any policies implemented should consider mitigation to protect the most vulnerable people from the impact of change.

It seems to me that in implementing the policy you advocate the most vulnerable would be the general citizens of the country whose economies would be affected, with a likelihood it will detrimentally affect their standard of living. As you say, buying stuff from them would only help growth and of, course, with that the ability to raise standards of living.

Given the track record of some of these countries and their governments, what mitigation would be suggested to protect these citizens from their government and/or the effects of the action you suggest?


PK, it is difficult to tell if you are spoiling for a fight, trolling, or being serious.

The short answer is that we are all citizens of the earth. Once the climate catastrophe takes hold it won't really matter where you live.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:47 pm

I found this article interesting.

Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth, NASA Study Shows

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/human ... tudy-shows
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Silver Surfer » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:02 pm

Tomiswalking wrote:I found this article interesting.

Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth, NASA Study Shows

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/human ... tudy-shows


Thanks for that Tom. Fascinating and cause for hope.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby NewForestRover » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:33 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
NewForestRover wrote:Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.


Quite right NFR. Keeping the current way of living going is way more important than considering and caring for the survival of ours and many other species.


I didn't say I disagree with what they are trying to do. But there has to be better ways of doing it than this.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:54 pm

NewForestRover wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
NewForestRover wrote:Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.


Quite right NFR. Keeping the current way of living going is way more important than considering and caring for the survival of ours and many other species.


I didn't say I disagree with what they are trying to do. But there has to be better ways of doing it than this.



OK, fair point - have you any suggestions?
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:02 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries (enveloping Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad ), and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I've been wondering ToC. E/R advocate that any policies implemented should consider mitigation to protect the most vulnerable people from the impact of change.

It seems to me that in implementing the policy you advocate the most vulnerable would be the general citizens of the country whose economies would be affected, with a likelihood it will detrimentally affect their standard of living. As you say, buying stuff from them would only help growth and of, course, with that the ability to raise standards of living.

Given the track record of some of these countries and their governments, what mitigation would be suggested to protect these citizens from their government and/or the effects of the action you suggest?


PK, it is difficult to tell if you are spoiling for a fight, trolling, or being serious.

The short answer is that we are all citizens of the earth. Once the climate catastrophe takes hold it won't really matter where you live.


I am neither trolling or spoiling for a fight. I realise that things need to be done and support what E/R are trying to do with reservations about some of their methods and/or expectations.

However, in particular, I very much support the idea that however it is achieved we should be cognisant of the fact that it isn't going to be easy, there may be some hard decisions to make, not least because there will be resistance in some quarters and we should be wary of what is done such that the vulnerable don't suffer.

As I suggest, surely your suggestion that one should not support these countries is going to affect the vulnerable, after all, isn't the effect of affecting someone's economy supposed to punish them for not tackling climate change? (Sorry, I'm ignoring your assumed extrapolation that the poster was telling those countries to get their act together (I don't believe they did) and should have deleted it)

Your reply replies (original and subsequent) seem to indicate that if the cost to those in less fortunate countries than us is that they may have to put up with a lower standard of living then so be it.

No fight. It is just your opinion and what you see is important or not.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:03 am

Everyone has to put up with a lower standard of living.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:06 am

Tomiswalking wrote:I found this article interesting.

Human Activity in China and India Dominates the Greening of Earth, NASA Study Shows

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/human ... tudy-shows


I've read before that China, for example, deserves more credit than they are given. Interesting article.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:08 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
NewForestRover wrote:Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.


Quite right NFR. Keeping the current way of living going is way more important than considering and caring for the survival of ours and many other species.


I guess another example of you considering that it doesn't matter if the vulnerable suffer, ToC?
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:11 am

Too occasional fan wrote:Everyone has to put up with a lower standard of living.


Including those whose standard of living is already below what might be considered acceptable. Yeah :roll:
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:14 am

Another article

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -emissions

“The great tragedy of the climate crisis is that seven and a half billion people must pay the price – in the form of a degraded planet – so that a couple of dozen polluting interests can continue to make record profits. It is a great moral failing of our political system that we have allowed this to happen.”
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby NewForestRover » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:26 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
NewForestRover wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
NewForestRover wrote:Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.


Quite right NFR. Keeping the current way of living going is way more important than considering and caring for the survival of ours and many other species.


I didn't say I disagree with what they are trying to do. But there has to be better ways of doing it than this.



OK, fair point - have you any suggestions?


No. Not at this moment. Too tired.

Watching TV and thinking how wonderful they are is a little bit different to being here amongst it all.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:19 am

Too occasional fan wrote:Another article

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -emissions

“The great tragedy of the climate crisis is that seven and a half billion people must pay the price – in the form of a degraded planet – so that a couple of dozen polluting interests can continue to make record profits. It is a great moral failing of our political system that we have allowed this to happen.”


Is it really all down to governments? One leading American Scientific institution dealing with global warming issues recognizes that a large part of the problem is these corporations hoodwinking governments and the public rather than simply the governments themselves.

The article gives an example of a US President issuing warning some time ago, as Maggie did in the UK years ago. Of course, they were challenged by these corporations and in the end, of course, it will come down to one "experts" view vs another "experts" opposing view.

The amount of money these companies spend on deliberate mis-information to cover-up the real picture and obscure it from all is phenomenal and, of course they have the upper hand when nobody is challenging them.

Accordingly, I'm not sure that that it is necessarily just the political systems but the various legal systems that assist those with their own agenda blocking government legislation attempts or action. Even this article cites that this type of activity goes on.

Of course, governments, individuals and industry could be doing more but overall these corporations have a far bigger impact on climate change when you take into account the small number of businesses that are causing it.

In many ways it's a shame that the vast majority of the public seem to have only just realised the fact that corporations have been carrying on as they are but they have now and initiatives like E/R are much needed. It needs a groundswell of individuals to challenge them and expose them. It is that sort of action that convinces governments to do more.

I have to say I do find it a bit strange that you consider this a great moral failing of our political system. Looking at the list the only company that has much of a British connection is BP and I'm not sure it is really a British company any more when a substantial stake is not British owned or even British domiciled. I don't think we have any control over how companies are making profits or carrying out their operations elsewhere in the world do we?
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:13 am

NewForestRover wrote:Just ask those living in London how they are feeling right now.

I agree with what XR are trying to do but disagree with the way they are going about it.

When your job involves helping vulnerable people that rely on you and can't manage without you......

Roads are blocked off, buses are diverted, tube stations are impossible and it takes a miracle to get there on time?

XR are hated and seen as a nuisance.


The very point of disruptive protest is to disrupt. Otherwise the cause is easily ignored and forgotten about.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:46 am

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Another article

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -emissions

“The great tragedy of the climate crisis is that seven and a half billion people must pay the price – in the form of a degraded planet – so that a couple of dozen polluting interests can continue to make record profits. It is a great moral failing of our political system that we have allowed this to happen.”


Is it really all down to governments? One leading American Scientific institution dealing with global warming issues recognizes that a large part of the problem is these corporations hoodwinking governments and the public rather than simply the governments themselves.

The article gives an example of a US President issuing warning some time ago, as Maggie did in the UK years ago. Of course, they were challenged by these corporations and in the end, of course, it will come down to one "experts" view vs another "experts" opposing view.

The amount of money these companies spend on deliberate mis-information to cover-up the real picture and obscure it from all is phenomenal and, of course they have the upper hand when nobody is challenging them.

Accordingly, I'm not sure that that it is necessarily just the political systems but the various legal systems that assist those with their own agenda blocking government legislation attempts or action. Even this article cites that this type of activity goes on.

Of course, governments, individuals and industry could be doing more but overall these corporations have a far bigger impact on climate change when you take into account the small number of businesses that are causing it.

In many ways it's a shame that the vast majority of the public seem to have only just realised the fact that corporations have been carrying on as they are but they have now and initiatives like E/R are much needed. It needs a groundswell of individuals to challenge them and expose them. It is that sort of action that convinces governments to do more.

I have to say I do find it a bit strange that you consider this a great moral failing of our political system. Looking at the list the only company that has much of a British connection is BP and I'm not sure it is really a British company any more when a substantial stake is not British owned or even British domiciled. I don't think we have any control over how companies are making profits or carrying out their operations elsewhere in the world do we?


Good that you see that ER are doing a necessary job.

Shame about your last paragraph though. A bit strange.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby cookiemonster » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:56 am

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries (enveloping Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad ), and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I've been wondering ToC. E/R advocate that any policies implemented should consider mitigation to protect the most vulnerable people from the impact of change.

It seems to me that in implementing the policy you advocate the most vulnerable would be the general citizens of the country whose economies would be affected, with a likelihood it will detrimentally affect their standard of living. As you say, buying stuff from them would only help growth and of, course, with that the ability to raise standards of living.

Given the track record of some of these countries and their governments, what mitigation would be suggested to protect these citizens from their government and/or the effects of the action you suggest?


PK, it is difficult to tell if you are spoiling for a fight, trolling, or being serious.

The short answer is that we are all citizens of the earth. Once the climate catastrophe takes hold it won't really matter where you live.


I am neither trolling or spoiling for a fight. I realise that things need to be done and support what E/R are trying to do with reservations about some of their methods and/or expectations.

However, in particular, I very much support the idea that however it is achieved we should be cognisant of the fact that it isn't going to be easy, there may be some hard decisions to make, not least because there will be resistance in some quarters and we should be wary of what is done such that the vulnerable don't suffer.

As I suggest, surely your suggestion that one should not support these countries is going to affect the vulnerable, after all, isn't the effect of affecting someone's economy supposed to punish them for not tackling climate change? (Sorry, I'm ignoring your assumed extrapolation that the poster was telling those countries to get their act together (I don't believe they did) and should have deleted it)

Your reply replies (original and subsequent) seem to indicate that if the cost to those in less fortunate countries than us is that they may have to put up with a lower standard of living then so be it.

No fight. It is just your opinion and what you see is important or not.


PK, just two pages ago you agreed that climate change deniers can save the planet by hastening human extinction. Now you are a champion for the rights of billions in the developing world. Is the inconsistency due to some kind of Damascene conversion from one view to the other, because you believe both things at once or rather because you are just trying to get a rise out of people?
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby The Old TomCat » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:38 pm

Tomiswalking wrote:
I agree OTC. There is a climate crisis. I also agree with the experts.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... -protests/



Disputed scientific opinion.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:48 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Another article

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -emissions

“The great tragedy of the climate crisis is that seven and a half billion people must pay the price – in the form of a degraded planet – so that a couple of dozen polluting interests can continue to make record profits. It is a great moral failing of our political system that we have allowed this to happen.”


Is it really all down to governments? One leading American Scientific institution dealing with global warming issues recognizes that a large part of the problem is these corporations hoodwinking governments and the public rather than simply the governments themselves.

The article gives an example of a US President issuing warning some time ago, as Maggie did in the UK years ago. Of course, they were challenged by these corporations and in the end, of course, it will come down to one "experts" view vs another "experts" opposing view.

The amount of money these companies spend on deliberate mis-information to cover-up the real picture and obscure it from all is phenomenal and, of course they have the upper hand when nobody is challenging them.

Accordingly, I'm not sure that that it is necessarily just the political systems but the various legal systems that assist those with their own agenda blocking government legislation attempts or action. Even this article cites that this type of activity goes on.

Of course, governments, individuals and industry could be doing more but overall these corporations have a far bigger impact on climate change when you take into account the small number of businesses that are causing it.

In many ways it's a shame that the vast majority of the public seem to have only just realised the fact that corporations have been carrying on as they are but they have now and initiatives like E/R are much needed. It needs a groundswell of individuals to challenge them and expose them. It is that sort of action that convinces governments to do more.

I have to say I do find it a bit strange that you consider this a great moral failing of our political system. Looking at the list the only company that has much of a British connection is BP and I'm not sure it is really a British company any more when a substantial stake is not British owned or even British domiciled. I don't think we have any control over how companies are making profits or carrying out their operations elsewhere in the world do we?


Good that you see that ER are doing a necessary job.

Shame about your last paragraph though. A bit strange.


Why? Explain?
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