CoronaVirus

This board is a temporary one for topics and posts to to with the Coronavirus pandemic. Please put all relevant material in here, rather than the other boards.

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue May 12, 2020 10:36 am

Plenty on the news concerning the partial lifting of the lock down which is creating a lot of heated debate.
It is obvious the world cannot stay in self isolation until a vaccine has been developed and everybody has had a jab.
Therefore it is inevitable that casualty figures will continue. Government has the unenviable task of juggling getting people back to work and a normal life while trying to keep down serious outbreaks of CV19.
Boris will be forced to make hard and unpleasant decisions [same as every world leader] but has the good fortune of winning GE19 that has given him a strong majority and five years before he has to look over his shoulder. He now has time and a majority to implement policies that short term may be unpopular but done for long term benefit.
Jeremy Corbyn would have faced same dilemma should he have won GE19.
Yes this government has made errors which the opposition has been quick to jump on but the world is facing a situation that is beyond the personal experience of any politician/leader worldwide. Mistakes will happen.
All we can hope is that any shortcomings that get identified are quickly resolved and it seems this is happening.

As regards getting people back to work I’m in a difficult position to speculate. Being a pensioner I could remain in lockdown for rest of my life, be it for 20 years from now, but my neighbour is desperate that schools reopen. She is going out of her head looking after her three hyper-active children.
However my D-in-L and her son have both had their spleens removed which means they don’t have any natural immunity. Getting CV19 would probably be a death sentence for them. Her husband and the boy’s dad is a special needs teacher in a school.
Does David go back to work to pay the mortgage and self isolate at nights within his own home for years to come or do they carry on as now and isolate the whole family from rest of world?
On TV a mother said she would refuse to send her child to school although stats show that children are less likely to badly suffer CV19. And of course children do need proper education for future career prospects.

Undoubtedly some workers have become comfortable with being furloughed. My neighbour runs a small businesses and a week or so ago was permitted to restart work. He has a small workforce of around six, but two of them refused to go back.

These are a few personal examples showing Boris does not have a one brush solution. I don’t envy him.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby TreeinWillsbridge » Tue May 12, 2020 10:51 am

My brothers, wife's cousin says etc :lol:

Now I never read the Telegraph as it hides behind a paywall, however the article that Tom referred us to, was written by two journalists?

Various articles have been published in the Guardian written by scientists/doctors working in the fields of epidemiology and virus & vaccine testing. They all completely rubbish the idea that SARS-COV-2 is man made, it's unique structure makes it a naturally evolving organism.
If it had been lab created it would have a partial structure that was already known; Coronavirus has to be one of the most intensively studied organism's in the World.
Neither did it jump the species barrier in a Wuhan wet market either.

The simple answer is we don't know where or when it jumped the fence, and without a industrial scale test/trace/isolate programme in place, we're only guessing how many people are carriers, or asymptomatic. Thus we're all guessing about the fatality & infection rate or why some people are more adversely impacted than others.

*We know that Black African & Black Asian men have a disproportionate death rate*

A vaccine may not be effective, even if one is found to protect a proportion of the population. We may well have to learn to live with it and hope that it drifts *away [this concept is being discussed as I type on Radio Bristol, with Dr Barratt Pancarnia] * drift =morph into something far less contagious/deadly.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby TreeinWillsbridge » Tue May 12, 2020 11:00 am

The Tory party has a large majority that will probably carry them through this, that doesn't mean that Johnson is bound to survive public scrutiny if he continues his lazy, wing it, make it up as I go along approach, that he's adopting at present.

He isn't facing magic grandpa across the dispatch box any longer either; Op Signus is firmly on his parties watch.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue May 12, 2020 11:17 am

Johnson is recognised by the world as having done a poor job so far. His behaviour and decisions need to be called out as he is the Prime Minister and he has a majority that he fought for with a three word slogan. It’s not like we were the first country to have this virus and it’s not like there wasn’t a table top pandemic exercise a few years ago that showed up glaring holes in our preparedness.

Poor government to date, and more poor stuff over he last few days. Which parent are you going to visit? How far are you going to drive for exercise? Going to play shall I/shan’t I with a face mask?
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue May 12, 2020 11:28 am

Too occasional fan wrote:Johnson is recognised by the world as having done a poor job so far. His behaviour and decisions need to be called out as he is the Prime Minister and he has a majority that he fought for with a three word slogan. It’s not like we were the first country to have this virus and it’s not like there wasn’t a table top pandemic exercise a few years ago that showed up glaring holes in our preparedness.

Poor government to date, and more poor stuff over he last few days. Which parent are you going to visit? How far are you going to drive for exercise? Going to play shall I/shan’t I with a face mask?

In many ways you are endorsing exactly what I wrote. Thanks.
Boris knows that he would be in a no-win situation when the lock-down starts to get lifted.
That is why I said he is fortunate to win GE19 and able to plan for the long term.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Foggy » Tue May 12, 2020 11:35 am

Too occasional fan wrote:Which parent are you going to visit?


I can't visit mine as they live in a country to which I currently have no access. They are old, not in the best of health, and there has to be a fair chance if this continues that I many never see one or both of them again...or in one case with advancing senility that they may not recognise me if I do.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 12, 2020 11:54 am

I’ve been reading through some of the documentation and ministerial clarification on the new guidance. There’s still massive holes in everywhere and seemingly no intention of fixing them, but I’ll try and summarise the main take home points from it all.

- Continue to not leave your home unless necessary, but you can now leave your home for the following reasons:

1.) Exercise. You can exercise outside as much as you like, for as long as you like. You can drive to the place you want to exercise (ie. driving up to Minchinhampton Common for a walk, or even going to the Forest of Dean if you choose to). When out exercising, maintain social distancing rules at all times. If you decide to meet up with friends or family while out exercising, you can. But only 1 person at a time and you must maintain social distancing.
2.) Shopping for essentials.
3.) Medical appointments
4.) Helping a person who is isolating with 2 or 3.

-If you or anyone else in your household is displaying covid symptoms, you must self isolate for at least 14 days.

-Those previously designated as being in the vulnerable category should continue to self isolate.

- When out, wear some kind of face covering, especially when in enclosed spaces such as public transport or supermarkets. Do not use surgical masks, as the supply of these is reserved for the NHS and care homes. There’s some guidance on how to make these face coverings here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52609777

As a point of information, these kind of masks do not prevent you from catching anything. What they do prevent is you accidentally spreading the virus if you’re asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. Wear them to protect others, and others will wear them to protect you.

-If you are unable to work from home, you are now “encouraged” to go back to work from Wednesday (originally Monday). Workplaces should be made ‘covid-safe’ following guidance that will be published soon. If possible, avoid public transport, and try to socially distance if you do have to use it. If your place of work is reopening and there are issues with your ability to return to work (for example, can’t get childcare, feel workplace hasn’t been made covid-safe, can’t get to work in a safe manner) then it is up to you and your employer to sort out, the government has not got any guidance for these situations. (This is the big hole in these measures imo, employers could just turn around and say no more furloughment scheme, if you don’t want to come in for any of the reasons I’ve previously mentioned you have to go on Statutory Sick Pay of £90/week, which most cannot afford to do. This is the situation Care home workers have been put in all crisis.)

-Do not travel to 2nd homes or go on holidays. (Difficult for police to enforce with the new rules on travelling for exercise though). Do not travel across borders into Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland as you will be breaking their lockdown rules and you would be liable to be fined.


Hope that maybe clears up some of the very understandable confusion, many elements of the new advice were missing from the statement Sunday night, or confused by the ‘clarification’ that followed, but this seems to be where it’s now settled after a communications nightmare. I hope this also highlights where the issues with this advice lie, especially around those potentially returning to work, and where both employers and workers are asking for some much needed clarity.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Kentstripe » Tue May 12, 2020 12:14 pm

So it's illegal to travel to Wales or Scotland?

Can't understand what the problem with getting face masks for the public is, plenty available on Amazon etc. Obviously medical standard ones need to be higher grade (FFP3) but FFP1 or 2 should still be more then enough if you're sensible when working or out and about, and are easy to get hold of.
Last edited by Kentstripe on Tue May 12, 2020 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue May 12, 2020 12:14 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Johnson is recognised by the world as having done a poor job so far. His behaviour and decisions need to be called out as he is the Prime Minister and he has a majority that he fought for with a three word slogan. It’s not like we were the first country to have this virus and it’s not like there wasn’t a table top pandemic exercise a few years ago that showed up glaring holes in our preparedness.

Poor government to date, and more poor stuff over he last few days. Which parent are you going to visit? How far are you going to drive for exercise? Going to play shall I/shan’t I with a face mask?

In many ways you are endorsing exactly what I wrote. Thanks.
Boris knows that he would be in a no-win situation when the lock-down starts to get lifted.
That is why I said he is fortunate to win GE19 and able to plan for the long term.


Thank you for recognising that Johnson has done a poor job so far.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 12, 2020 12:41 pm

Kentstripe wrote:So it's illegal to travel to Wales or Scotland?

Can't understand what the problem with getting face masks for the public is, plenty available on Amazon etc. Obviously medical standard ones need to be higher grade (FFP3) but FFP1 or 2 should still be more then enough if you're sensible when working or out and about, and are easy to get hold of.


For the purposes of anything more than dropping off medical supplies or food to a relative in isolation, yes. And even then only if you live really close to the border. It would be deemed non-essential travel as it would’ve been here for the last few weeks.

As for face masks, Spain handed out 13m of them (FFP1 masks) for free when they introduced the advice to wear them a few weeks ago. We seem to continue to be having issues with PPE that they aren’t.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue May 12, 2020 12:44 pm

Furlough is being extended for four months. The detail is lacking at the moment (e.g. if it is at the same rates as now) but I think that is positive, and shows recognition that this is having a long term effect.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 12, 2020 12:57 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:Furlough is being extended for four months. The detail is lacking at the moment (e.g. if it is at the same rates as now) but I think that is positive, and shows recognition that this is having a long term effect.


Looks like it's been extended "as is" until the end of July, then from August-October the payment of employees will be shared between employers and the government.
Basically, they expect most jobs to start heading back part time from July and the government top up your wages to 80% of your normal pay.

Good way of managing the economic response, very glad they've intervened and are continuing to intervene in this way, especially when you see the unemployment numbers coming out of the US. But this scheme looks very very reliant on the public health response being effective enough to allow pretty much everyone who can't easily work from home all of the time back to work part time by July, without massively spreading the virus. Personally, I think that's optimistic.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby NewForestRover » Tue May 12, 2020 1:08 pm

Thank you for the clarification DD.

You always explain everything much better than the Government do.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Greeners » Tue May 12, 2020 3:35 pm

Hi
Has anyone actually received any furlough pay yet?
I've just got a payslip which has my first 5 weeks of furlough on it, that will be paid in on Friday if the company transfer at their normal time.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue May 12, 2020 3:50 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
Thank you for recognising that Johnson has done a poor job so far.

Yes Boris could be doing a better job but remember he is still recovering from CV19.
The pandemic situation is so fast moving that it is inevitable errors will occur.
Having the worst number of deaths in Europe is an awful blot but proportionally there are worse affected countries.
But this being a football forum, we all say nothing is resolved until final whistle.
It may well be that UK suffers less fatalities than others in the 2nd and subsequent waves of CV19 because this country has already acquired more herd immunity than them.
And if that happens the public will only remember the final outcome and not what happened in between.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby madasahatter » Tue May 12, 2020 4:26 pm

Thank you for recognising that Johnson has done a poor job so far.

In power for less than six months.

Nationalised the Railways
Around 9m people on paid (80%) holiday (furlough) for up to a possible 4 months.
Written of 13.8 billion of NHS debt
Given the NHS 'whatever it takes'.
Increased the Barnett formula payments.
Gave green light for 15.2 billion HS2 investment.
Left the EU

I don't think even the spendthrift Gordon Brown could butcher as much money as the current administration has. A splurge that your great great grandchildren will still be paying of. Probably one of the most Left Wing Governments this country has ever seen and it still ain't enough for some of you - priceless.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue May 12, 2020 5:09 pm

The Chancellor has said the furlough scheme is costing the country £8 Billion a month.
I had to Google 'Billion' not being sure if it was 10 or 100 x £million.
But was taken aback to find it was 1,000 [one thousand] x £million.
That is an awful lot of money.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue May 12, 2020 5:17 pm

madasahatter wrote: A splurge that your great great grandchildren will still be paying of.


Your post reminded me that it was only a few years ago that the UK paid its final instalment to the US for money it borrowed to help the country during WW1.
I think there was a small celebration that month.
Sorry nothing to do with subject but a bit of trivia that went through my mind.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Tue May 12, 2020 5:30 pm

England is setting a different pattern of lifting lock-down than the other three counties of our union.
I am happy with that.
Some decades ago in the early 1960s there was some sort of epidemic in the country with most cases centred in Blackburn.
I can remember that Blackburn was shut off from rest of country for a number of weeks.
Why that stuck in my memory was because during those weeks Blackburn Rovers did not play a game and dropped down the table.
When the team were allowed to resume play they were many points adrift of next lowest team and unfortunately for them never recovered that lost ground and were relegated.
My point is that isolating different parts of the country would not be something new.
And i suspect it may happen again in near future.
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Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 12, 2020 6:08 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:England is setting a different pattern of lifting lock-down than the other three counties of our union.
I am happy with that.
Some decades ago in the early 1960s there was some sort of epidemic in the country with most cases centred in Blackburn.
I can remember that Blackburn was shut off from rest of country for a number of weeks.
Why that stuck in my memory was because during those weeks Blackburn Rovers did not play a game and dropped down the table.
When the team were allowed to resume play they were many points adrift of next lowest team and unfortunately for them never recovered that lost ground and were relegated.
My point is that isolating different parts of the country would not be something new.
And i suspect it may happen again in near future.


A localised lockdown system is a good tactic, but it’s something that only works with very low levels of the virus in circulation and with an extensive contact tracing setup in place, we have neither.

The divergence between nations isn’t a deliberate tactic, it’s a reflection of the incompetence of the government when it’s come to communicating these measures to the devolved nations. The Scottish Government found out about the change in slogan and strategy less than 24hrs before the announcement via the Daily Telegraph, it’s utterly unforgivable. He’s effectively made it illegal to drive to Wales BY ACCIDENT, strange times indeed.
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