CoronaVirus

This board is a temporary one for topics and posts to to with the Coronavirus pandemic. Please put all relevant material in here, rather than the other boards.

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby madasahatter » Tue May 26, 2020 7:44 pm

..... the return trip up on March 19th, which frankly can't be proven either way anyway.

According to reports his car is fitted with a tracker. This will identify if the March 19th trip actually happened.
Using car tracking and mobile phone records it should be possible to determine whether the Barnard Castle trip was as DC outlined, or was as one suspects, a day out.

If this follows the 'usual' pattern for political scandals, the lies, deceit and cover-up will be far worse than the original offence. The PM ain't out of the woods. When DC was asked when the PM new about the Durham trip, he gave the 'fluffy' answer that he seemed to recall a telephone conversation with the PM, but they were both so incapacitated that neither can recall any detail - Ummmm

You have to love the political scandals; Profumo; Stonehouse; Aitkin; Archer; Thorpe; Cyril Smith; Hamilton; plus the expenses scandal, to name but a few.
madasahatter
Reserves
Reserves
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:38 am

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 26, 2020 9:01 pm

madasahatter wrote:..... the return trip up on March 19th, which frankly can't be proven either way anyway.

According to reports his car is fitted with a tracker. This will identify if the March 19th trip actually happened.
Using car tracking and mobile phone records it should be possible to determine whether the Barnard Castle trip was as DC outlined, or was as one suspects, a day out.

If this follows the 'usual' pattern for political scandals, the lies, deceit and cover-up will be far worse than the original offence. The PM ain't out of the woods. When DC was asked when the PM new about the Durham trip, he gave the 'fluffy' answer that he seemed to recall a telephone conversation with the PM, but they were both so incapacitated that neither can recall any detail - Ummmm

You have to love the political scandals; Profumo; Stonehouse; Aitkin; Archer; Thorpe; Cyril Smith; Hamilton; plus the expenses scandal, to name but a few.


Haven't heard anything about a tracker, but I have read that now the Durham Police are officially investigating him they should be able to run his number plates, be interesting to see if that throws anything else up, if it does he's surely toast, but then I thought that when the Barnard Castle trip got found out.
With the Barnard Castle trip, Cummings' account is in and of itself a breach anyway. He was defending the indefensible there.
Agree with you about the PM "forgetting", blatantly untrue. Embarrassing they even thought they'd get away with that.

I also agree that the damage caused by the lying, cover-up, and treating the public with contempt has done far more damage than the original offence could do on its own. Had Cummings released a short statement on day 1 of this scandal that he had made a terrible mistake under a lot of stress, that he and his family were scared and had panicked, and that he was sorry to all the people who had made the right decisions and followed the rules I would've understood, and it wouldn't have needed anything more than a suspension pending an internal investigation. The Government have judged it terribly, their response has angered the vast majority of the country, undermined the lockdown rules, and dragged the entire cabinet into the mess destroying trust in them all. Some snap polling out today reveals some of the damage. The PM's personal approval rating dropped 20% in just 4 days and is still falling, the government approval rating dropped 16% in 24 hours, these are ratings that normally move by 2-3% in a month. Voting intentions will surely begin to follow, especially with Starmer showing pretty good early approval ratings across all demographics, maybe then the government will finally realise their mistake and sack him, so that we can all move on with partially repaired public trust in the government. The longer they drag this out, the worse it gets.
User avatar
dursleydog
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:46 pm
Location: Kernow

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby michael » Tue May 26, 2020 9:24 pm

I thought the first question by the cleric today was the best and most damning question i have heard in the last 60 days of these press briefings .

when he asked the simple question as to whether in the circumstances the govmnt would rescind fines to those making similar trips -summed the offence up perfectly

pure genius-and so obviously simple .

did it get hancock on the hop and instigate for once an unrehearsed reply ,where the govmnt can't win whether it does or does not rescind fines .

that given-i am not absolutely convinced that the ministers (and scientists ) are not privy to the questions in advance-why do they constantly look at notes on their lecterns when answering ?
that given-having reiterated so many times that they do not know questions in advance-if that were not to be the case-even more of a lie, so it probably is true to be fair
michael
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 8049
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:27 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Tue May 26, 2020 10:31 pm

madasahatter wrote:..... the return trip up on March 19th, which frankly can't be proven either way anyway.

According to reports his car is fitted with a tracker. This will identify if the March 19th trip actually happened.
Using car tracking and mobile phone records it should be possible to determine whether the Barnard Castle trip was as DC outlined, or was as one suspects, a day out.


We should remember, that at the beginning of this mess, the PM was casting doubt on as much of the accusations as possible, including the Barnard Castle trip. Then, that was given up as a truth.
The gimlet of the forum.
User avatar
Too occasional fan
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:04 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Tue May 26, 2020 10:57 pm

michael wrote:I thought the first question by the cleric today was the best and most damning question i have heard in the last 60 days of these press briefings .

when he asked the simple question as to whether in the circumstances the govmnt would rescind fines to those making similar trips -summed the offence up perfectly

pure genius-and so obviously simple .

did it get hancock on the hop and instigate for once an unrehearsed reply ,where the govmnt can't win whether it does or does not rescind fines .

that given-i am not absolutely convinced that the ministers (and scientists ) are not privy to the questions in advance-why do they constantly look at notes on their lecterns when answering ?
that given-having reiterated so many times that they do not know questions in advance-if that were not to be the case-even more of a lie, so it probably is true to be fair


It was an excellent question. Very fair, very simple and to the point. And it backed the government into a corner entirely of their own making.

Order a review, and admit they’re completely rewriting the rules of the most important crisis since the war just to save the career of an unelected side.

Or don’t order a review, and be quite rightly slammed by an angry public for exceptionalism. One rule for us, one rule for them.

Hancock on instinct went for option 1. The govt disagreed and claimed after the event that Hancock had made no such commitment. Well I saw it with my own eyes, maybe I should go for a drive and see if I need new lenses.
User avatar
dursleydog
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:46 pm
Location: Kernow

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 am

The Dominic Cummings affair is certainly creating much furore: in times past he would already be history but because of CV19 we are living in unusual times.
He may well eventually resign which would not be good for the COUNTRY; the guy is a near genius as every person who voted Labour in GE19 will attest. They have been claiming without him at No 10, Jeremy Corbyn might have become PM.
I suspect DC might be forced out because of Tory rebelliousness, rather than public opinion.
Boris has been prepared to stand by his chief advisor knowing he is taking a tanking in opinion polls. But he knows that having already lost an enormous amount of support, sacking DM will not magically bring it back. Therefore it is understandable for Boris to adopt a bunker mentality.
Besides many people believe it is a media led storm. DM is apparently not a likeable person who does not suffer fools lightly. He has consistently shown distain towards the press and it seems as if they are now taking their revenge. For instance there have been at least 4 MPs who have shown total disregard towards sanctions but have had hardly a mention.

During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham at the same time Boris was in hospital, there was much criticism of Government policy. That subdued when both men were back at the helm and the situation improved.
So it is reasonable and sensible to retain both Boris and DM – they have proved their worth above all others, which is what the COUNTRY needs during this pandemic.
User avatar
The Old TomCat
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 4126
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:06 pm
Location: Stroud

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 am

Tory rebelliousness is fed by public opinion.
The gimlet of the forum.
User avatar
Too occasional fan
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:04 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Eco-Exile » Wed May 27, 2020 8:15 am

The Old TomCat wrote:The Dominic Cummings affair is certainly creating much furore: in times past he would already be history but because of CV19 we are living in unusual times.
He may well eventually resign which would not be good for the COUNTRY; the guy is a near genius as every person who voted Labour in GE19 will attest. They have been claiming without him at No 10, Jeremy Corbyn might have become PM.
I suspect DC might be forced out because of Tory rebelliousness, rather than public opinion.
Boris has been prepared to stand by his chief advisor knowing he is taking a tanking in opinion polls. But he knows that having already lost an enormous amount of support, sacking DM will not magically bring it back. Therefore it is understandable for Boris to adopt a bunker mentality.
Besides many people believe it is a media led storm. DM is apparently not a likeable person who does not suffer fools lightly. He has consistently shown distain towards the press and it seems as if they are now taking their revenge. For instance there have been at least 4 MPs who have shown total disregard towards sanctions but have had hardly a mention.

During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham at the same time Boris was in hospital, there was much criticism of Government policy. That subdued when both men were back at the helm and the situation improved.
So it is reasonable and sensible to retain both Boris and DM – they have proved their worth above all others, which is what the COUNTRY needs during this pandemic.


What is your view on unelected individuals creating U.K. law and policy? I thought you were against that.

And what if such people also took unelected control of U.K. policy when recently found in contempt of Parliament for failing to go to committee hearings?
Eco-Exile
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1257
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:42 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby michael » Wed May 27, 2020 10:35 am

During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham

did i miss either Mr C or anyone else actually stating he was ill in bed OTC ?
michael
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 8049
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:27 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Kentstripe » Wed May 27, 2020 11:08 am

michael wrote:During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham

did i miss either Mr C or anyone else actually stating he was ill in bed OTC ?


https://www.politicshome.com/news/artic ... fe-reveals
User avatar
Kentstripe
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 6011
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:08 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Wed May 27, 2020 11:44 am

The Old TomCat wrote:The Dominic Cummings affair is certainly creating much furore: in times past he would already be history but because of CV19 we are living in unusual times.
He may well eventually resign which would not be good for the COUNTRY; the guy is a near genius as every person who voted Labour in GE19 will attest. They have been claiming without him at No 10, Jeremy Corbyn might have become PM.
I suspect DC might be forced out because of Tory rebelliousness, rather than public opinion.
Boris has been prepared to stand by his chief advisor knowing he is taking a tanking in opinion polls. But he knows that having already lost an enormous amount of support, sacking DM will not magically bring it back. Therefore it is understandable for Boris to adopt a bunker mentality.
Besides many people believe it is a media led storm. DM is apparently not a likeable person who does not suffer fools lightly. He has consistently shown distain towards the press and it seems as if they are now taking their revenge. For instance there have been at least 4 MPs who have shown total disregard towards sanctions but have had hardly a mention.

During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham at the same time Boris was in hospital, there was much criticism of Government policy. That subdued when both men were back at the helm and the situation improved.
So it is reasonable and sensible to retain both Boris and DM – they have proved their worth above all others, which is what the COUNTRY needs during this pandemic.


37,000 are dead.

You're confusing winning for leadership.

The tactics he has used to win the Brexit Vote, and win the election, have proven to be utterly disastrous for our country the moment a genuine crisis came along. Both Boris' and Cummings' (and who can even differentiate the two anymore) strategies have demonstrably failed on every possible level, in handling this specific political scandal, in handling the wider pandemic response, in saving lives, in protecting each and every one of us. The fact that Johnson is so utterly reliant on one unelected adviser that he would sacrifice the entire public health message and all public trust to save his career, literally risking OUR lives for Cummings, shows just how weak and unsuitable for office he is. Arguing this is just some Westminster media storm is a dead cat, a nothing argument that's already been blown out the water, an argument that betrays just how far some of the most extreme brexiteer figures are willing to stick their head in the sand to avoid admitting they're wrong. They think everything is about brexit because brexit is all they have, they are wrong. This is nothing to do with brexit, it is about the management of this crisis, it is about hypocrisy, it is about trust. All of which the government have sacrificed on the alter of Dom.

We're entering into a critical period now, parents are being asked to trust the government that its safe for their kids to return to school, workers are being asked to trust the government that its safe to return to work, NHS staff are being asked to trust the government that the easing measures won't cause a second wave of cases and deaths for already traumatised and exhausted staff to cope with. And the government is asking plenty of us too, far more than they ask of Mr Cummings. They're launching a contact tracing scheme absolutely vital to preventing a 2nd wave, which works by asking pre-symptomatic people to isolate for two weeks just because they came into contact with a case. And they're now asking us to make that sacrifice while simultaneously claiming Cummings did nothing wrong by driving the length of the country, and going on day trips, when they were supposed to be self-isolating. If people believe the government that self-isolation can include those actions, the virus will spread and people will die. If people are so angry at the government for having one rule for themselves and another rule for us, the virus will spread and people will die. If people have no trust or faith in the government's instructions anymore, because they've been caught lying to the back teeth on this issue so why would they tell the truth on the rest, the virus will spread and people will die.

I live in Cornwall, a part of the country where around 1 in 5 properties is registered as a 2nd home. If everybody who caught the virus who owned one of these 2nd homes decided to do what Mr Cummings did and drive hundreds of miles to self-isolate down here, they will have imported the virus en masse into our county, and our only major hospital. They have limited ICU capacity, limited staff, provision for Cornish residents only in the worst case scenario. In Cummings' own statement he said his son ended up requiring a hospital trip, there's every chance that that action could've spread the virus is a region of the country that at the time had very few cases, had everybody else in a similar situation done the same regional hospitals would've been put under so much strain by local outbreaks flaring up and merging, originating from imported cases brought by ill people driving hundreds of miles because they felt like it. That is EXACTLY why the government instructed us all explicitly to not do it! It's outright dangerous what he did, and it's outright disgusting how the government are defending it.
User avatar
dursleydog
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:46 pm
Location: Kernow

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby michael » Wed May 27, 2020 12:36 pm

Kentstripe wrote:
michael wrote:During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham

did i miss either Mr C or anyone else actually stating he was ill in bed OTC ?


https://www.politicshome.com/news/artic ... fe-reveals


fair enough-his wife said it ,so it must be true .
i'm not sure if i was feeling as bad as Mr C's wife portrays, i would have waited that long before minimally getting medical attention.

very generous of him though to ensure he did not utilise NHS resources in favour of the rest of us .

i can't help wondering where ,when and who was able to fit in his sons visit to hospital though,if both Mr and Mrs C were poorly ?
i guess as that aspect of his statement involves a 'minor' ,and also probably covered by gdpr regulations , it cannot be scrutinised /ascertained.
michael
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 8049
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:27 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Eco-Exile » Wed May 27, 2020 1:14 pm

michael wrote:
Kentstripe wrote:
michael wrote:During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham

did i miss either Mr C or anyone else actually stating he was ill in bed OTC ?


https://www.politicshome.com/news/artic ... fe-reveals


fair enough-his wife said it ,so it must be true .
i'm not sure if i was feeling as bad as Mr C's wife portrays, i would have waited that long before minimally getting medical attention.

very generous of him though to ensure he did not utilise NHS resources in favour of the rest of us .

i can't help wondering where ,when and who was able to fit in his sons visit to hospital though,if both Mr and Mrs C were poorly ?
i guess as that aspect of his statement involves a 'minor' ,and also probably covered by gdpr regulations , it cannot be scrutinised /ascertained.


His wife also said they locked down in London and didn’t mention Durham. She also said they knew she had Covid straight away but then Cummings and Gove said her symptoms weren’t clear which is why he went back to the office after going home to see her. The time at which she says Cummings was in bed, he says he was driving the family up the motorway to Durham.

All in all, her Spectator article has been thoroughly assessed as baring very little similarity to the story Cummings himself gave. Even the likes of the FT have been criticising it and Ministers have not been able to say why her and his accounts are so different when asked.

Dominic Cummings stated the media had misrepresented the events. The most misrepresentative and incorrect articles were those by his own wife.

Image
Eco-Exile
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1257
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:42 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed May 27, 2020 1:51 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:During the period that DM was ill in his bed in Durham at the same time Boris was in hospital, there was much criticism of Government policy. That subdued when both men were back at the helm and the situation improved.
So it is reasonable and sensible to retain both Boris and DM – they have proved their worth above all others, which is what the COUNTRY needs during this pandemic.


No, what that shows is:

The others are a bit rubbish, (of course there is the view that this is deliberate, so that Johnson isn't challenged by a clever person)
There's a control freaky at the heart of this government, that risks its very operation
The gimlet of the forum.
User avatar
Too occasional fan
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:04 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Eco-Exile » Wed May 27, 2020 2:45 pm

If Old Tom Cat is happy for an unelected non-accountable official who is not a member of any political party run the country, who wants to destroy the civil service, revoke independence of the courts, is happy to close parliament illegally, and refused to attend committee hearings then let him have that view. Thankfully, most citizens in the nation do not have that view and are more in favour of elected leaders and participatory democracy.
Eco-Exile
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1257
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:42 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Eco-Exile » Wed May 27, 2020 4:15 pm

And now Johnson is making a mockery of his select committee hearing. After appointing his own chair who then replaced two of the Conservative MPs with two others, the two replacements are filibustering by asking questions irrelevant to the topic scheduled for the first 20 minutes of the agenda.

This is not democracy.
Eco-Exile
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1257
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:42 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby dursleydog » Thu May 28, 2020 8:44 am

The UK now has the highest excess deaths per capita of any country for which there is reliable data, and is only just behind the US for total excess deaths.

https://amp.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c25 ... ssion=true

Just read that, there’s nothing more to say.
User avatar
dursleydog
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:46 pm
Location: Kernow

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu May 28, 2020 8:59 am

Eco-Exile wrote:And now Johnson is making a mockery of his select committee hearing. After appointing his own chair who then replaced two of the Conservative MPs with two others, the two replacements are filibustering by asking questions irrelevant to the topic scheduled for the first 20 minutes of the agenda.

This is not democracy.


If you’d like to see how our glorious PM got on at the committee hearing, watch this.

https://twitter.com/g_gosden/status/126 ... 59490?s=20

The Track trace and isolate process starts on Monday, he doesn’t know the facts, but blusters about. Legislation would be needed to get people to have to isolate, rather than make their own minds up. Parliament isn’t sitting just now.
The gimlet of the forum.
User avatar
Too occasional fan
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:04 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu May 28, 2020 9:04 am

Eco-Exile wrote:If Old Tom Cat is happy for an unelected non-accountable official who is not a member of any political party run the country, who wants to destroy the civil service, revoke independence of the courts, is happy to close parliament illegally, and refused to attend committee hearings then let him have that view. Thankfully, most citizens in the nation do not have that view and are more in favour of elected leaders and participatory democracy.


You say that, but that unelected non-accountable official was the master mind behind Brexit, which, you may remember, had an aim to rid us of unelected non-accountable officials.
The gimlet of the forum.
User avatar
Too occasional fan
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:04 pm

Re: CoronaVirus

Postby Foggy » Thu May 28, 2020 9:35 am

dursleydog wrote:The UK now has the highest excess deaths per capita of any country for which there is reliable data, and is only just behind the US for total excess deaths.

https://amp.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c25 ... ssion=true

Just read that, there’s nothing more to say.


As of yesterday if you take the number of deaths per million population the current top ten are:

Belgium - 808
Spain - 580
UK - 552
Italy - 547
France - 438
Sweden - 418
Netherlands - 343
Ireland - 331
USA - 309
Switzerland - 222

I understand that Belgium and Spain have both been hit particularly badly by deaths in care situations, even worse than the UK. There will be many countries with far less reliable methods for recording deaths and causes than the USA and Europe, where the true picture may be a little uncertain. I also gather that Latin America is now feeling the worst of the virus and infection is increasing steadily.

(Caveat - there are a few countries with really high figures, namely Andorra, Equatorial Guinea and San Marino, but they have really small populations so just a handful of cases will have significantly skewed the figures).

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
The future is bright, the future is green...Forest Green!
User avatar
Foggy
Top Manager
Top Manager
 
Posts: 5631
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:54 pm
Location: The other side of the hill...living in the land of the eggmen!

PreviousNext

Return to Coronavirus

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

About FGR

We’re a club that looks to the future, but our identity is forged from a rich 128-year history. Founded in 1889, we’re one of the oldest football clubs in the world.

In 2017, we were promoted to the Football League for the first time in our history – which means we can spread our sustainability message to an even bigger audience. FIFA recently described us as the greenest football club in the world. That’s quite an accolade, and it shows how we’ve been able to bring together football and environmental consciousness at the highest levels of the game.