DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate change

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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:27 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
Fartvs Antiqvvs wrote:It struck me that the E/R demos 'across the world's capitals' are generally the soft target European ones.

This Country is doing more to combat climate change than any other on our planet. I didn't see E/R demonstrating in Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad and so on, some of the real polluters on earth. They would get short shrift there I suppose.


I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries, and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I see nothing in the original post saying that he is telling those countries to get their act together. To me it is a comment on E/R actions and has some merit.

Out of interst is it safe to assume you do none of the things you raised in the first part of the post - even though it is extremely interesting to understand why you are raising it given the context of the original post.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:29 am

Chrisgump11 wrote:Well done Dale

'Extinction' protesters may be causing a lot of targeted inconvenience but not sure that it is correct to call them 'law breakers'? Unlike our PM who does so on whim


Um - if they are not lawbreakers, why are they being arrested?

Also not sure an analogy can be drawn in the way you infer. Our country does not have a constitution and is decided in the way the remainers went about it. A court case was needed to decide if BJ had broken the law and decided he had.

Also, it is recognised that different people will have different opinions, which is why decisions are made by a number of people.

The difference with the protestors is that laws have already been passed in respect of their actions.

Personally, by getting involved, I think the judiciary have set a dangerous precedent which politicians of all sides may come to regret in the future when faced with those who oppose them.
Last edited by paulK on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:37 am

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
Fartvs Antiqvvs wrote:It struck me that the E/R demos 'across the world's capitals' are generally the soft target European ones.

This Country is doing more to combat climate change than any other on our planet. I didn't see E/R demonstrating in Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad and so on, some of the real polluters on earth. They would get short shrift there I suppose.


I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries, and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I see nothing in the original post saying that he is telling those countries to get their act together. To me it is a comment on E/R actions and has some merit.

Out of interst is it safe to assume you do none of the things you raised in the first part of the post - even though it is extremely interesting to understand why you are raising it given the context of the original post.


You may assume whatever you like. It won’t get away from the fact that there needs to be radical change, however much deflection or obfuscation is introduced.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:50 am

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
Fartvs Antiqvvs wrote:It struck me that the E/R demos 'across the world's capitals' are generally the soft target European ones.

This Country is doing more to combat climate change than any other on our planet. I didn't see E/R demonstrating in Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad and so on, some of the real polluters on earth. They would get short shrift there I suppose.


I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries, and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I see nothing in the original post saying that he is telling those countries to get their act together. To me it is a comment on E/R actions and has some merit.

Out of interst is it safe to assume you do none of the things you raised in the first part of the post - even though it is extremely interesting to understand why you are raising it given the context of the original post.


You may assume whatever you like. It won’t get away from the fact that there needs to be radical change, however much deflection or obfuscation is introduced.


Not disagreeing. Just wondered why you posted something so irrelevant to the original post. Unless there is something personal there, of course.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:02 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
Fartvs Antiqvvs wrote:It struck me that the E/R demos 'across the world's capitals' are generally the soft target European ones.

This Country is doing more to combat climate change than any other on our planet. I didn't see E/R demonstrating in Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad and so on, some of the real polluters on earth. They would get short shrift there I suppose.


I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries, and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I see nothing in the original post saying that he is telling those countries to get their act together. To me it is a comment on E/R actions and has some merit.

Out of interst is it safe to assume you do none of the things you raised in the first part of the post - even though it is extremely interesting to understand why you are raising it given the context of the original post.


You may assume whatever you like. It won’t get away from the fact that there needs to be radical change, however much deflection or obfuscation is introduced.


Not disagreeing. Just wondered why you posted something so irrelevant to the original post. Unless there is something personal there, of course.


It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles. "Tell them over there to do better, they are causing the problem."

We can help reduce the destruction of the Amazon rainforest by not consuming items that drive that destruction - palm oil, beef etc. So ER demonstrating in "the soft target European" capitals is not a soft option at all.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:15 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:[

Not disagreeing. Just wondered why you posted something so irrelevant to the original post. Unless there is something personal there, of course.


It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles. "Tell them over there to do better, they are causing the problem."

We can help reduce the destruction of the Amazon rainforest by not consuming items that drive that destruction - palm oil, beef etc. So ER demonstrating in "the soft target European" capitals is not a soft option at all.


OK, so why didn't you say that rather than questioning his buying habits? I'm still confused as to the relevance.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:23 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:[

Not disagreeing. Just wondered why you posted something so irrelevant to the original post. Unless there is something personal there, of course.


It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles. "Tell them over there to do better, they are causing the problem."

We can help reduce the destruction of the Amazon rainforest by not consuming items that drive that destruction - palm oil, beef etc. So ER demonstrating in "the soft target European" capitals is not a soft option at all.


OK, so why didn't you say that rather than questioning his buying habits? I'm still confused as to the relevance.


Well, you need to re-read his post then. Directly criticising the ER protestors because they have taken the 'soft' option and would get 'short shrift' elsewhere. It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:37 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
Tomiswalking wrote:With great power there must also come -- great responsibility!

The reason xr seems hypocritical is beacuse they want the big businesses in the world to be regulated. I'm not sure if they realise that it's probably us that will end up paying for it.


Who else will pay for it? We've been the beneficiaries of a wholly unsupportable lifestyle, based on fuel deposits.

Big businesses are now, largely, more powerful than governments. Providing a return to their shareholders is more important than doing anything eco.


That was my point.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:19 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:[

Not disagreeing. Just wondered why you posted something so irrelevant to the original post. Unless there is something personal there, of course.


It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles. "Tell them over there to do better, they are causing the problem."

We can help reduce the destruction of the Amazon rainforest by not consuming items that drive that destruction - palm oil, beef etc. So ER demonstrating in "the soft target European" capitals is not a soft option at all.


OK, so why didn't you say that rather than questioning his buying habits? I'm still confused as to the relevance.


Well, you need to re-read his post then. Directly criticising the ER protestors because they have taken the 'soft' option and would get 'short shrift' elsewhere. It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles.


As I said yes, I get that. Or do I need to shout it? YES, I GET THAT.

What I can;t understand is what FA's buying habits have to do with it :roll:
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:36 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:[

Not disagreeing. Just wondered why you posted something so irrelevant to the original post. Unless there is something personal there, of course.


It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles. "Tell them over there to do better, they are causing the problem."

We can help reduce the destruction of the Amazon rainforest by not consuming items that drive that destruction - palm oil, beef etc. So ER demonstrating in "the soft target European" capitals is not a soft option at all.


OK, so why didn't you say that rather than questioning his buying habits? I'm still confused as to the relevance.


Well, you need to re-read his post then. Directly criticising the ER protestors because they have taken the 'soft' option and would get 'short shrift' elsewhere. It's a common mantra against pressing for change in our lifestyles.


As I said yes, I get that. Or do I need to shout it? YES, I GET THAT.

What I can;t understand is what FA's buying habits have to do with it :roll:


He wants action in these other regimes. It is quite possible that he can help achieve that, by understanding what damage is done in other countries by seemingly innocuous purchases here.

The repeated mantra is that the other countries need to sort themselves out, as we are the goodie goodies. This carries the clear message that we shouldn’t really be subjected to ER style protests, when the reality is that we massively influence what goes on in the rest of the world.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
He wants action in these other regimes. It is quite possible that he can help achieve that, by understanding what damage is done in other countries by seemingly innocuous purchases here.

The repeated mantra is that the other countries need to sort themselves out, as we are the goodie goodies. This carries the clear message that we shouldn’t really be subjected to ER style protests, when the reality is that we massively influence what goes on in the rest of the world.


Frankly, I think you have read faaaar too much into his post. I don't see it as a criticism and neither dso I see it as a demand for action. Just a valid comment. Personally I agree with his sentiments.

Neither did he say that we are the goodie goodies as far as I can see or say we don't need to do anything as your wording suggests.

I guess I didn't see your "suggestion" as a suggestion as such. More of a you are doing this aren't you.

But hey, ho. I'll leave it at that.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:29 pm

And, to counter that, I think you read far too little into it! But well done for stringing it out over many hours. :lol: :lol:
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:33 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:And, to counter that, I think you read far too little into it! But well done for stringing it out over many hours. :lol: :lol:


NP. Opinions :o Who'd have them ;)
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 pm


The repeated mantra is that the other countries need to sort themselves out, as we are the goodie goodies. This carries the clear message that we shouldn’t really be subjected to ER style protests, when the reality is that we massively influence what goes on in the rest of the world.


Totally agree heard Putin spouting about how China and india are to blame. The profit and product cross borders and so should the responcibilty.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:43 pm

Just finished watching the Andrew Neil show on BBC2 where he interviewed a leader of the Climate Extinction rebellion that has closed down London.
I'm not a great fan of Andrew Neil but by gosh does he get to the nub of issues.
He acted as devil's advocate and utterly destroyed his guests claims.
There is a climate problem but the extravagant claims by activists will ultimately be counter-productive. People will stop believing them.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:03 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:Just finished watching the Andrew Neil show on BBC2 where he interviewed a leader of the Climate Extinction rebellion that has closed down London.
I'm not a great fan of Andrew Neil but by gosh does he get to the nub of issues.
He acted as devil's advocate and utterly destroyed his guests claims.
There is a climate problem but the extravagant claims by activists will ultimately be counter-productive. People will stop believing them.


There is a climate crisis, and it is getting worse faster than predicted.

Pick little holes, by all means, but the crisis isn't going to go away because of Andrew Neil.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:09 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:Just finished watching the Andrew Neil show on BBC2 where he interviewed a leader of the Climate Extinction rebellion that has closed down London.
I'm not a great fan of Andrew Neil but by gosh does he get to the nub of issues.
He acted as devil's advocate and utterly destroyed his guests claims.
There is a climate problem but the extravagant claims by activists will ultimately be counter-productive. People will stop believing them.


There is a climate crisis, and it is getting worse faster than predicted.

Pick little holes, by all means, but the crisis isn't going to go away because of Andrew Neil.


With OTC on this one. Look how much various claims have affected Brexit. such that people don't trust the Tories.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby The Old TomCat » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:15 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:Just finished watching the Andrew Neil show on BBC2 where he interviewed a leader of the Climate Extinction rebellion that has closed down London.
I'm not a great fan of Andrew Neil but by gosh does he get to the nub of issues.
He acted as devil's advocate and utterly destroyed his guests claims.
There is a climate problem but the extravagant claims by activists will ultimately be counter-productive. People will stop believing them.


There is a climate crisis, and it is getting worse faster than predicted.

Pick little holes, by all means, but the crisis isn't going to go away because of Andrew Neil.

TOC,
I suggest you watch program before casting an opinion.
Both Andrew Neil and I accept there is a climate crisis but perhaps as not bad as the doom mongers claim.
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:42 pm

The Old TomCat wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
The Old TomCat wrote:Just finished watching the Andrew Neil show on BBC2 where he interviewed a leader of the Climate Extinction rebellion that has closed down London.
I'm not a great fan of Andrew Neil but by gosh does he get to the nub of issues.
He acted as devil's advocate and utterly destroyed his guests claims.
There is a climate problem but the extravagant claims by activists will ultimately be counter-productive. People will stop believing them.


There is a climate crisis, and it is getting worse faster than predicted.

Pick little holes, by all means, but the crisis isn't going to go away because of Andrew Neil.

TOC,
I suggest you watch program before casting an opinion.
Both Andrew Neil and I accept there is a climate crisis but perhaps as not bad as the doom mongers claim.


I agree OTC. There is a climate crisis. I also agree with the experts.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... -protests/
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Re: DV claims FGR would fold if it was causing climate chang

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:33 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
I assume from your post that you know with 100% absolute certainty that you buy nothing that is made in any of those countries (enveloping Beijing, Moscow, Riyadh, Doha, Abu dhabi, Kuwait City, Bagdad ), and also haven't supported the growth of those countries in the past by buying stuff from them.

Also that you are happy having a standard of living way higher than there is in those countries, what at the same time telling them to get their act into gear and accept a lower standard of living than you have.


I've been wondering ToC. E/R advocate that any policies implemented should consider mitigation to protect the most vulnerable people from the impact of change.

It seems to me that in implementing the policy you advocate the most vulnerable would be the general citizens of the country whose economies would be affected, with a likelihood it will detrimentally affect their standard of living. As you say, buying stuff from them would only help growth and of, course, with that the ability to raise standards of living.

Given the track record of some of these countries and their governments, what mitigation would be suggested to protect these citizens from their government and/or the effects of the action you suggest?
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