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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:20 pm

Thank you for that comprehensive analysis, dd.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:44 pm

dursleydog wrote:
I really don't see how any more detail should be necessary, so this is the last post I'm writing on the matter. I hope you can at least appreciate that the Irish border situation is an exceptionally difficult one with only one simple solution, retaining FoM. I think a lot of wilful ignorance is being banded about on the Leave side of things regarding the border, because its just so inconvenient to their Brexit project that it's easier to pretend it's a non-issue than actually face up to the challenges of Brexit.


You are right re the detail. However you are unconvincing. To me, at least.

Much of what you write I already know. You don't have to tell me and I have considered. Just have a different opinion. Frankly, whilst agreeing the situation is exceptionally difficult, I do not think there is one "simple" solution so hope you can appreciate I may have a different view to you.

You quote e.g. Norway as an example as to how it can work, ignoring that there is a hard border.

For me the solution is to find a way of solving the border issue and not ignoring the view that there has to be one, wherever it may be situated. We are returning to pre the agreements that negated their need whether we like it or not.

Views you put forward such as suggestions are too difficult to be implement or this has not been tested (the technological) issue ignore the fact that the UK/Irish border is a unique and new situation that doesn't have any precedents. So what's the alternative? How can it be resolved?

We should not have to be in the position that we can only leave the EU with a deal if we solve the issue. It is not just the UK that has a duty to honour the GFA, Ireland and the EU have a duty too, as the US has reminded them.

I think BJ's approach of using the mechanisms of the Irish-Anglo agreement where the island as a whole govern their affairs is a good one and shows respect towards the GFA. However, it does suffer from the fact that just like we have the leave/remain issue, NI has its Nationalist/Unionist issues on top of that.

One major thing we do seem to be agreeing on is the way politicians from all sides have contributed to this mess. They still are as far as I am concerned and I can't see that changing. My reason for voting remain was primarily because this seemed somewhat predictable. My reasons for changing position are because of the way Parliament has dealt with it. I am annoyed with them in the same way as the EU are frustrated.

It seems we may agree that May did a better job than she was given credit for. Boris is in exactly the same position when it comes to getting an agreement and implementing the democratic will of the public IMO.
Last edited by paulK on Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:56 pm

I wonder how politically aligned we will be with china, russia and trumps usa after leaving the eu.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:38 pm

Wow, this is an interesting one. A suggestion that BJ might ask MPs if they wish to repeal Article 50 :o

Can see a lot of potential political clout if the house wants to do that and then votes to do it. Especially as the result of the referendum was to leave.

Gearing up for an election, as some suggest?

Of course, it could just be journalistic speculation.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 pm

paulK wrote:Wow, this is an interesting one. A suggestion that BJ might ask MPs if they wish to repeal Article 50 :o

Can see a lot of potential political clout if the house wants to do that and then votes to do it. Especially as the result of the referendum was to leave.

Gearing up for an election, as some suggest?

Of course, it could just be journalistic speculation.


Referendum was three years ago. I think if the Parliament chose the revoke policy then they would have to put choice again to the population in a referendum or election.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Tomiswalking » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:52 pm

how long have the conservative party been arguing amongst themselves about the EU? Since I can remeber.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:06 pm

Article 50 should never have been signed without a clear plan. A revocation with a commitment to have a proper exit plan in x years, followed by a Referendum on what it really means (no lies about the NHS, or Sovereignty, or similar).

Still, we now have the third Tory PM in a row putting party above country.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:57 am

Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:Wow, this is an interesting one. A suggestion that BJ might ask MPs if they wish to repeal Article 50 :o

Can see a lot of potential political clout if the house wants to do that and then votes to do it. Especially as the result of the referendum was to leave.

Gearing up for an election, as some suggest?

Of course, it could just be journalistic speculation.


Referendum was three years ago. I think if the Parliament chose the revoke policy then they would have to put choice again to the population in a referendum or election.


Agree E/E. Wondering how it will pan out

Understand Blair is having real difficulty with the way the Labour party has and is handling this and is really worried that an election will be an elephant trap for the party, if they fall into it.

Still I don't think anyone really knows what Boris will do or has in mind. There is a lot of guesswork. I'm sure we'll be much clearer by Saturday evening when, hopefully, we'll be rejoicing we're still on top of the table :)

As for Tories wanting assurances on what an election manifesto might contain :roll: Is Boris going to do that? It would seem akin to Coops naming his team days in advance. But then again, if he sees merit in it.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:16 am

paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:Wow, this is an interesting one. A suggestion that BJ might ask MPs if they wish to repeal Article 50 :o

Can see a lot of potential political clout if the house wants to do that and then votes to do it. Especially as the result of the referendum was to leave.

Gearing up for an election, as some suggest?

Of course, it could just be journalistic speculation.


Referendum was three years ago. I think if the Parliament chose the revoke policy then they would have to put choice again to the population in a referendum or election.


Agree E/E. Wondering how it will pan out

Understand Blair is having real difficulty with the way the Labour party has and is handling this and is really worried that an election will be an elephant trap for the party, if they fall into it.

Still I don't think anyone really knows what Boris will do or has in mind. There is a lot of guesswork. I'm sure we'll be much clearer by Saturday evening when, hopefully, we'll be rejoicing we're still on top of the table :)

As for Tories wanting assurances on what an election manifesto might contain :roll: Is Boris going to do that? It would seem akin to Coops naming his team days in advance. But then again, if he sees merit in it.


Only Coops would be trustworthy more and likely not to change the team at the last moment after giving promises he would not.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Pitchfork » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:37 am

The Brexit debate has polarised the UK and it has increasingly turned many off politics. There can't be many that aren't absolutely fed up of the whole mess we find ourselves in

The polling agency Ipsos MORI has, for many years, asked people in Britain every month what they think are the most important issues facing the country. In December 2015, only six months before the EU referendum and after nearly three years of anticipating it, just 1% of the sample cited Europe as the most important issue of the day. By April 2019 that figure had jumped to 59%.

This data does not support a view of Britain’s relationship with Europe as the cause of a longstanding and deep split within the British people. Instead it points to the referendum and the propaganda around it – before and since – as causing the split. Prior to 2016, although people differed in their views of Europe – sometimes strongly – it was never, for most, the overriding issue which it has become.

According to British Social Attitudes data, between 1992 and 2015 there was a slow and unsteady growth in euroscepticism. We can attribute this, at least in part, to a background throb of anti-EU propaganda in sections of the British press. But then there was a huge leap in anti-EU feeling. In 2015, only 22% wanted to leave the EU yet, as we know, 52% voted to leave in the referendum held the following year. This inflation of europhobia, which provoked alarm among Remainers, was more or less simultaneous with the rapid installation, noted above, of Brexit as the major national issue.

People who had previously felt either indifferent or mildly negative towards the EU were encouraged to feel outrage – first at the alleged drain of UK resources into the EU and the political suffocation it was claimed we were subjected to, then at the “treachery” of those politicians who would seek to thwart the popular vote.

Remainers, for their part, found a new focus for suspicion and negativity towards the culturally unwashed, as some tended to see the bulk of the Leave vote. Told that they were all in irreconcilable conflict with each other, many of the British people believed it and felt it.

However, media effects need psychological underpinning. Media content cannot shape our outlooks unless it speaks to some need already present in us. The referendum invited people to identify with one of two sides, to find a clear home in the bewildering flux of today’s complexities and uncertainties. On both sides, membership of a community of self-confidence and self-righteousness seemed to beckon, an antidote to the widespread sense of precarity and confusion. The Brexit question offered people the increasingly scarce experience of being sure, clear and together with others. In a world where it can be increasingly difficult to feel at home, and to know what we should be doing, this is a powerfully attractive experience – none the less so for being, in this case, illusory.

This regressive surge into tribalistic unity of purpose was led by the Brexiteers. But Remainers have subscribed all-too readily to the melodramatic, self-fulfilling headlines that say Britain has plunged into a civil war.

Of course, the UK’s relationship with the rest of Europe is a real and important issue, but behind all that there is a toxicity at work on both sides of the “Brexit divide”. A small anti-EU minority laid the fuse, but the rest of the public proved highly combustible. Getting to the bottom of how and why Brexit has blown up as it has will be essential to the work of repairing and improving British democracy.

Undoubtedly the debate will continue on here. If a thread is closed down another will emerge and this shows, as with climate change, people care and have strong views.

My worry is the division it is creating in society and how long the wounds will take to heal?
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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:53 am

Interesting stuff, PF. The polarisation that has happened is frightening. Plus the fact that most of the problems this country face are nothing to do with Europe. If we do sail away from the EU we will still have all those problems.

As for anger and amazement, if you have a business and trade or intend to trade with the EU, here are some videos from the Government telling you what to do.

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 5895771138
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:40 pm

A reflective post P/F. Thank you. Picking up upon your point about propaganda.......

Politicians understand very well that peoples decisions are rarely made by logic and are driven by emotion. Logic is simply a person's way of justifying their position and, of course, what is logical to one person may not be logical to another.

I think the frightening thing is the way that social media disseminates propaganda so easily and quickly, the media fuelling that emotion in the quest for whatever purpose. Whilst on the positive side informatiuon gets out they can be easily manipulated into disseminating false information and/or used as tools to confuse. In the end it can be difficult to disseminate fact from fiction and/or truth from lies.

As you say, if it isn't Brexit it will be something else. For me, it is not so much a case of when will the wounds heal but is this an evolution and where are we headed?
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:Wow, this is an interesting one. A suggestion that BJ might ask MPs if they wish to repeal Article 50 :o

Can see a lot of potential political clout if the house wants to do that and then votes to do it. Especially as the result of the referendum was to leave.

Gearing up for an election, as some suggest?

Of course, it could just be journalistic speculation.


Referendum was three years ago. I think if the Parliament chose the revoke policy then they would have to put choice again to the population in a referendum or election.


Agree E/E. Wondering how it will pan out

Understand Blair is having real difficulty with the way the Labour party has and is handling this and is really worried that an election will be an elephant trap for the party, if they fall into it.

Still I don't think anyone really knows what Boris will do or has in mind. There is a lot of guesswork. I'm sure we'll be much clearer by Saturday evening when, hopefully, we'll be rejoicing we're still on top of the table :)

As for Tories wanting assurances on what an election manifesto might contain :roll: Is Boris going to do that? It would seem akin to Coops naming his team days in advance. But then again, if he sees merit in it.


Only Coops would be trustworthy more and likely not to change the team at the last moment after giving promises he would not.


You miss the point and I really don't know where you are coming from.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:46 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:Interesting stuff, PF. The polarisation that has happened is frightening. Plus the fact that most of the problems this country face are nothing to do with Europe. If we do sail away from the EU we will still have all those problems.

As for anger and amazement, if you have a business and trade or intend to trade with the EU, here are some videos from the Government telling you what to do.

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 5895771138


Thank you ToC. I found the videos useful and informative.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Too occasional fan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:43 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Interesting stuff, PF. The polarisation that has happened is frightening. Plus the fact that most of the problems this country face are nothing to do with Europe. If we do sail away from the EU we will still have all those problems.

As for anger and amazement, if you have a business and trade or intend to trade with the EU, here are some videos from the Government telling you what to do.

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 5895771138


Thank you ToC. I found the videos useful and informative.



That's no problem. I found them a bit scary. The use of the word "may" sounded alarm bells.
I think these videos should have been available before the Referendum.
The cannot be "Project Fear" because they are from the Government.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:29 pm

Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Interesting stuff, PF. The polarisation that has happened is frightening. Plus the fact that most of the problems this country face are nothing to do with Europe. If we do sail away from the EU we will still have all those problems.

As for anger and amazement, if you have a business and trade or intend to trade with the EU, here are some videos from the Government telling you what to do.

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 5895771138


Thank you ToC. I found the videos useful and informative.



That's no problem. I found them a bit scary. The use of the word "may" sounded alarm bells.
I think these videos should have been available before the Referendum.
The cannot be "Project Fear" because they are from the Government.


Change can often be scary. Also, a bit difficult to issue informational videos when you don't know what an outcome is going to be. Obviously, even now it is unclear.

Maybe the stay campaign should have alerted people as to what might happen in this sort of scenario?
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Re: Parliament

Postby dursleydog » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:35 pm

paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Interesting stuff, PF. The polarisation that has happened is frightening. Plus the fact that most of the problems this country face are nothing to do with Europe. If we do sail away from the EU we will still have all those problems.

As for anger and amazement, if you have a business and trade or intend to trade with the EU, here are some videos from the Government telling you what to do.

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 5895771138


Thank you ToC. I found the videos useful and informative.



That's no problem. I found them a bit scary. The use of the word "may" sounded alarm bells.
I think these videos should have been available before the Referendum.
The cannot be "Project Fear" because they are from the Government.


Change can often be scary. Also, a bit difficult to issue informational videos when you don't know what an outcome is going to be. Obviously, even now it is unclear.

Maybe the stay campaign should have alerted people as to what might happen in this sort of scenario?


They did. I believe it's called "Project Fear".
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:52 pm

More ‘project fear’ this time from Nissan:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ness-model

I suppose the job losses and supply chain impact will be seen as collateral damage by those who want to leave due to ideology and not economy.
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Re: Parliament

Postby Eco-Exile » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:54 pm

paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:
Eco-Exile wrote:
paulK wrote:Wow, this is an interesting one. A suggestion that BJ might ask MPs if they wish to repeal Article 50 :o

Can see a lot of potential political clout if the house wants to do that and then votes to do it. Especially as the result of the referendum was to leave.

Gearing up for an election, as some suggest?

Of course, it could just be journalistic speculation.


Referendum was three years ago. I think if the Parliament chose the revoke policy then they would have to put choice again to the population in a referendum or election.


Agree E/E. Wondering how it will pan out

Understand Blair is having real difficulty with the way the Labour party has and is handling this and is really worried that an election will be an elephant trap for the party, if they fall into it.

Still I don't think anyone really knows what Boris will do or has in mind. There is a lot of guesswork. I'm sure we'll be much clearer by Saturday evening when, hopefully, we'll be rejoicing we're still on top of the table :)

As for Tories wanting assurances on what an election manifesto might contain :roll: Is Boris going to do that? It would seem akin to Coops naming his team days in advance. But then again, if he sees merit in it.


Only Coops would be trustworthy more and likely not to change the team at the last moment after giving promises he would not.


You miss the point and I really don't know where you are coming from.


My point was if Coops announces his line up in a Thursday then by Saturday you can trust it will be same. Whereas if Boris Johnson tells you something on Thursday morning you know he will be announcing something different come Thursday night and on Saturday will be denying ever saying anything on Thursday at all.
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Re: Parliament

Postby paulK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:34 pm

dursleydog wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:
paulK wrote:
Too occasional fan wrote:Interesting stuff, PF. The polarisation that has happened is frightening. Plus the fact that most of the problems this country face are nothing to do with Europe. If we do sail away from the EU we will still have all those problems.

As for anger and amazement, if you have a business and trade or intend to trade with the EU, here are some videos from the Government telling you what to do.

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 5895771138


Thank you ToC. I found the videos useful and informative.



That's no problem. I found them a bit scary. The use of the word "may" sounded alarm bells.
I think these videos should have been available before the Referendum.
The cannot be "Project Fear" because they are from the Government.


Change can often be scary. Also, a bit difficult to issue informational videos when you don't know what an outcome is going to be. Obviously, even now it is unclear.

Maybe the stay campaign should have alerted people as to what might happen in this sort of scenario?


They did. I believe it's called "Project Fear".


Oh well. Appears the information was available pre-the referendum so shouldn't be a surprise.
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